How does everyone feel about the MoP...

General Discussion
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I'm concerned with a few things.

In regards to mages specifically:
~Level 75 talents are 2 Fire spells and Slow. I'm a frost mage so the fire spells are out. Slow is useless to me because I can: ice them in place or polymorph. Unless there's a glyph that will make them more Frost-centric, I really don't see myself using them.
Frost/Fire/Arcane don't get special bonuses to abilities in their own school anymore. You don't need a +x% bonus to fire spells to keep fire from using Frostbolt or Arcane Blast anymore because Fire doesn't learn Frostbolt or Arcane Blast. So Blast Wave, Dragon's Breath, Scorch, etc. will do as much damage for Frost and Arcane as they do for Fire.

~Why is FFB being made a level 1 ability? It has a 2.5sec cast time versus the 1.5sec cast time of Frostbolt and Fireball? Also, Frostbolt is generally superior in terms of the damage output and slow ability it adds on, whereas FFB only gets used when it procs because it's an instant cast and costs no mana.
It's basically the "filler main ability" spell for you until you pick a spec and switch to AB/fireball/frostbolt, similar to Strike for Warriors and Primal Srike for Shaman. In light of its new role it will probably have a lower cast time at lower levels.

~Where did Fingers of Frost go!? Where did Shattered Barrier and Reactive Barrier go!?

~Focus Magic is gone too. I liked that!
If you don't see it, it might be an error or it might be a talent with a name change (for example, shattered barrier is now Ice Ward at tier 1.) Or it might be legitimately gone (Reactive Barrier is probably out, but you can now grab Cauterize for your buttonless survivability cooldown needs.)
In general:
~For those characters that are not 85 when MoP comes out, what happens to their learned abilities? It seems the level requirements for some are changing drastically. Will they all of sudden "forget" this ability that had previously just removed the face of some poor bad guy?
If the level requirement went up you'll lose it, just like when they changed a lot of level requirements in Cata. It'll be awkward for people in the middle of the leveling process, but most likely better for the people who start out after the fact.
Mage armor has no mana regen, gotta have it for arcane unless you are going to change the mana cost stacking. Where did focus magic go?

Druids look way OP. So if they get to use multiple specs within a fight why not other classes? Give a dps that has a tank spec the ability to switch into that spec for 45 seconds or a heal spec for 45 seconds. Hunters could use BM and call a spirit beast, or go surv..speaking of which where did entrapment go for survival?

O, in order for a druid to switch to a healing form, there would have to be a healing form right?? Like a tree??? :D Say yes....

Another clueless player that doesn't realize that abilities are being taken away from you and that an ability you could get at 69 you now have to wait until level cap at 90.

Enranged Regeneration is a core ability to all warriors. You lose that as a core ability and now have to choose between ER and Second Wind. Both which are available to Arms warriors right now.

Throw Down and Piercing Howl are available to Arms Warriors now and in MoP you have to choose 1 or the other.

As a Warrior, how can you be happy with this?

And every class now has abilities that are available to certain specs that never were before. What's your point?

So you like the idea of having your rage regeneration abilities taken away when all warrior survivability and talents depend on it practically? As a fury warrior this is sad they are stripping that away and giving something that arms already has which i do NOT spec in.
it isn't a matter of giving more choice to people who couldn't get those talents before, its stripping down the builds and forcing us to have talents we do not want or need because Blizzard thinks its "better" not what the PLAYER thinks is better.
Well, I think the system has its pros and cons... but from a warrior (arms) stand point of view:

Why is Bladestorm (already available) moved to lvl 90 ?? Same could be said about Shockwave, but since It is still prom to many changes...i'll just shut up and wait.
It'll be annoying from 5.0 to MoP launch, but current expansion balance always gets !@#$ed up when the new expansion patch hits. It's not exactly practical for them to make one set of talents/abilities that keeps things balanced and doesn't make you lose anything significant at 85 to only use for the month or two between 5.0 and MoP launch.
Ferals need a viable defensive ability.
Not really impressed with some of the priest talents, but I wasn't expecting much in the first place. *shrug* I won't comment further than that since the large majority will be changed probably 13949024 times before release, and I haven't actually tested them.
It looks like shamans, priests, paladins, and druids are all losing their efficient heal (Heal, Healing wave, Nourish, and Holy Light) and big heal (Greater Heal, Greater Healing Wave, and Divine Light) unless they are specced into the healing tree. Druids actually get Rejuv and Healing Touch regardless of spec, since they don't really have a "flash heal" (Regrowth is Resto Only)

This causes some issues, since for instance, Healing Surge as enhance/elemental with decent gear at 85 heals for about 9k, while flash heal as shadow or flash of light as ret heal for upwards of 15-17k (or ret word of glory in the 20k range). The current Resto shaman tree is designed to compensate for the crappiness of Healing Surge with purification giving +25%, Nature's Blessing a further 18%, and tidal waves 30% crit (all of which leave the spell sorely lacking and only really useful for building stacks on Baleroc).

Furthermore, Enhance will be losing the ability to use Maelstrom Weapon on greater healing waves, which is a pretty huge hit to survivability.

Currently, the access for shaman offspecs to Greater Healing Wave lets them spend a lengthy period of time after a fight casting a medium efficiency large heal before moving on to the next target, or in enhance's case, sacrifice a fair chunk of damage for a decent heal. The lack of spell pushback or cast time reduction makes the spell not really viable for use during combat unless used with maelstrom, but at least heals for roughly 15-20% of your max HP per cast. Trying to heal up with Healing Surge will be pretty awful, since it costs 1k less mana and heals for half of GHW.

Neither spec right now is very good at offhealing (as elemental was decent-ish during WotLK), considering how strong flash heal/PWS are for shadow priests or Word of Glory for rets.

Basically, please don't hose elemental/enhance survivability for resto's sake, which has pretty much been done all throughout cataclysm. I see some of the silly survivability and self healing abilities being given to non-healing classes like rogues, warriors, DKs, warlocks, hunters, etc, and can only really shake my head.
I think the first tier of Paladin talents need to be changed a lot. Blizzard said they want all of the choices to be really good and that's what will make it a hard choice. In the case of the first tier of Paladin talents, I feel like they are all very bad. It's still a hard choice, but only because they are all so bad.
11/23/2011 01:35 PMPosted by Garmheim
I think the talent changes proposed for MoP are awful and are an insult every current player. Please consider signing the petition to Blizzard here:

Petition signed.
Seriously my rogue is going to have to level to 90 to get shadowdance again. Very weak. I enjoy the game alot, but with no sense of acomplishment...weakness. They may as well lower our levels and let us level up again.

Please oh please stop this injustice and fix it :)

No Justice No Peace :)
I just made a post about this. So many core abilities missing...

For priests alone right now:


-Divine Hymn is Holy spec only.
-Renew is Holy spec only.
-Mass dispel is not listed as available for any spec.
-Divine Ageis is gone from disc spec.
-Heal and Binding Heal are available for Holy spec only.
-Devouring Plague is not listed as a Shadow spec ability.
-Greater Heal is Holy/Disc spec only.
-Shackle Undead is not listed as available for any spec.

No, I'm not very happy right now.

Oh no, a damage dealing spec can only deal damage now? THE WORLD IS ENDING..
Seems to me that this new "philosophy" towards the talent trees, is geared towards a plug and play mentality. All i see in this is, choose the role you want, we will give you your core abilities as you level and every 15 levels you can choose an ability that you think fits your play style.

Not much of a choice imho. All I see is blizz toying with how far they can dumb it down.
I'm incredibly excited to see that all rogues will get 15% movement speed and Relentless Strikes as a passive. However I was likewise disappointed to find that only Assassination will get the new execute move Dispatch. It's something that would be new and exciting to PvE and PvP alike and only one spec gets it? I see the lore reason (e.g. Assassins execute people) and what not but from a game play standpoint it feels like Combat/Sub rotations will remain stale and boring.

I describe Rogues in Cata as functional not fun. They work. All of their abilities do what they need to when they need to and everything generally flows. The problem is they lack the flare or dare I say spark of other classes. There are no procs to watch for, there is only one spec with an execute phase that simply uses a different baseline builder and not something new, and there's generally not a lot that changes up the rotations and it's the same mash builder 2-3 times for points -> priority finisher that it's been for the past several expansions. I'm hoping that with the massive revamp of the talents and skills that Rogues might get something that changes up the game for them a bit, adds some much needed excitement into the class.

All that criticism aside I'm still looking forward to the new talent trees with the exception of that one tier that pits Prep against Shadowstep. Seriously, remove prep and abilities like it and re-balance accordingly. This is your opportunity to do that. Cooldowns that reset other cooldowns are usually so powerful that they will not be a choice for the majority of PvP play and I'd hope you have PvE and PvP in mind when you want each tier to be an 'interesting choice' and not 'cookie cutter specs' running rampant again for any side of the game.
Read my previous posts.

Rogues are losing too much and gaining nothing of importance to make up for that. In order to be competitive in PVP, Preparation and Shadowstep are a must so is having Imp Recuperate AND Cheat Death. No matter how you look at it, we are losing 2 main abilities that kept us competitive in PVP especially against frost mages.

And now we have to wait 21 levels to get a talent we already have??? It's like getting a child getting christmas gift and you play with it for a couple of months, then the parents take the gift away, rewrap it for next christmas and say, "we got you a new gift". It's insulting.

Your entire argument is based on the impacts of the new "talent" tree on the game in its current form. That does not make sense. The challenges you face will be changing too.

So I invite you to think of how us rogues can bring the pain in the new world (of warcraft), and make the other classes fear us for bringing something they have not seen before. And they shall fear us, as they should.

Imp Recup is nice, but 1% more healz and 6% less dmg? That seems miniscule to me, we still have regular Recup. But thats my opinion, I dont think that talent is a must have, and I think Cheat Death gives me more bang for the talent. Thats my choice.

I have the same opinion of Prep/Shadowstep. I think step gives me more for the way I want to play. You may not agree, and can pick the talents YOU want.

We just have different and shiny tools to play with. And legendary daggers: feral druids/hunters/enh shaman I was just adding that to rub it in... neener neener neener!
I just made a post about this. So many core abilities missing...

For priests alone right now:


-Divine Hymn is Holy spec only.
-Renew is Holy spec only.
-Mass dispel is not listed as available for any spec.
-Divine Ageis is gone from disc spec.
-Heal and Binding Heal are available for Holy spec only.
-Devouring Plague is not listed as a Shadow spec ability.
-Greater Heal is Holy/Disc spec only.
-Shackle Undead is not listed as available for any spec.

No, I'm not very happy right now.

Oh no, a damage dealing spec can only deal damage now? THE WORLD IS ENDING..

I outlined all of the omitted spells in a thread on the MoP forums...but divine aegis is a disc talent, and disc priests do in fact use mass dispel, heal, binding heal, and divine hymn...I know it's hard to comprehend, but disc priests do in fact use healing spells...
Also, I'm going to be honest here. Even after looking over the priest talents I will tell you right now that there will not be any, "Some of these are for fun! You should be able to pick which ones you want!" Because no. Some of them are clearly heads and tails above the rest.

+movement speed to levitate? Really? REALLY? I can already see where most disc/holy's talent points are going to go, and it's not in some of these for fun talents. Why would anyone take the bizarro fire orb that will likely have ALL the pathing/aggro/attacking the wrong target issues mages' current fire orbs have and less utility to boot over arcangel or the free flash heal. That's really a no brainer right there, especially given how prone Blizzard is to nerfing AoE healing capabilities off the bat then slowly buffing them as expansions go on.

I mean yeah the talents are going to be more spread out, especially for disc and holy, but some of these are literally never going to get used, I can already tell. Also, almost all of these spells are pretty heavily split between the specs. It's very obvious which ones are shadow, disc, and holy, and how poorly they are going to mesh together.

If the point was to avoid cookie cutter builds, this is not working out for you. I can already see a cookie cutter build for most raid healers right now. The talent placement doesn't make sense in some places (all shadow-esq type defensive spells on the first tier, no actual healing capability.) and some of the talents overlap with others. Why would anyone take psychic scream if they can take psyfiend instead? Psychic scream may be AoE with a shorter CD, but the psyfiend casts multiple screams that last longer and doesn't use a global CD each time, plus it's something else the enemy needs to target to get rid of instead of you.

Please make these better. And yes, to other specs, at least you don't have a "new" talent that will make your levitate give people a movement buff. No seriously, that's in our new talent tree. They actually expect people to put a talent in it.
In this case of the Mists of Pandaria calculator data is essentially pre-alpha, and will absolutely change in many ways.

It was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change. We also wanted to present everything on a single page to give you a fuller context for the initial talent changes we announced at BlizzCon, and to see how the overall structure of core abilities, spec abilities, and talents will function, with concrete examples.

Bashiok, thank you for giving me one thing to look forward to and be happy for on a day that has caused me much misery (none of which had related to Blizzard/WoW in any way). Thank you for making my day slightly more tolerable. <3

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