VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

General Discussion
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It seems to be one announcement contradicts the spirit of the other.

On the one hand (valor), you're saying - no guys you have to actually do the highest content in order to get the highest rewards. On the other hand (conquest), you're saying - no guys you don't have to do the highest content - just spam random battlegrounds and brute force your way to the highest gear.

I'd like to ask that you clarify the reason for these two contradictory messages - both announced simultaneously no less. =/


Highest rewards are from the top rated RBG/Arena. These are just good rewards.
This is a terrible idea. I have developed a deep hatred for the troll dungeons that I avoid them like the plague. I have no burning desire to suffer through the new 5 mans coming in the patch either. If people can clear the raid content they should be rewarded with capping their VP and not be forced into LFG dungeons.

As for the new LFR tool, Blizzard is clearly overestimating the completion rate for this feature. I give it one reset before it is nerfed to oblivion and beyond. It never ceases to amaze me how short sighted Blizzard is at times.
11/17/2011 09:23 AMPosted by Bashiok
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


I fully agree with you, but have not seen anything else recently that can be used to offset the difference. Is there some change in the works to offset them in another way ?
Can someone explain to me why they are nerfing the amount of tokens in 25 man from 3 to 2 when were losing the option to buy any tier from valor?

Can someone explain why they promised to up the ten man drops and instead nerfed them from one token 2 items to one token and one item and basically lying to the community?

Maybe i'm missing something and these numbers are just placeholders on the ptr and more loot will drop on live realms, but it took me a long time to get my 4 peice even in firelands on 25 man becuz lo and behold we had 18 vanq tokens in a row before seeing a conq token.

So you want to make it even worse for a higher rng raid than the previous one was because your nuking the amount of gear we get?

And wtf at 150 vp for dungeons and 100 for bosses, there is a reason many raiders avoid the lfd you know.
I don't see anything wrong with this new set up. In the past we have always had to do a few 5ms to finish our cap. After a month or so most raiders was finished with valor stuff and it was wasted anyways. Not only that but most classes the valor gear isn't optimal and you will still be wanting the Boss Drops anyway. If any of you actually ran the new 5m on the ptr, they aren't that bad really. 353 gear doable and with our raid gear we will probably roll through it quickly. Our guild will be doing it as guild anyway for the most part so I don't have to worry about pugs and such though.

I like the idea that FL will drop 50 per boss. We are still working on the Legendary weapon for our mage and this will help make it at least some what worth it to do a full FL clear one night.
I was longwinded but thorough before, I'll try to be more succinct in my distain for this move.

- The primary incentives to raid are social (your friends do it), reputation/ego (i killed X and you haven't) and loot.

- 25 player raiding is substantially more difficult to organise & schedule. Not slightly, but a hell of a lot. For every 2 of Blizzard's raider customers a 10 player guild keeps occupied, a 25 player guild is trying to keep 5 people occupied. That's a lot more demanding.

- The current loot differences between 10 & 25 are so insubstantial that only an accountant could love them. This equalises the rewards even further, without somehow managing to equalise the effort involved in forming 25 rather than 10. Things like equal mount drop rates actually actively penalise 25 man raiding.

- I do not think it is realistically possible for Blizzard to somehow make managing 25 people as easy to manage as 10 people. It's a fundamental scheduling issue, combined with the fact that it's naturally harder to get 25 people at the upper end of the skill 'bell curve' than it is to get 10 people.

- Therefore when 25's have more scheduling issues, a harder time not averaging down to a lower skill level, and equal rewards... what's the incentive? Only the epeen. And the perception is that 6/7 HM 10man is larger epeen points than 2 or 3/7 HM 25, so the trend is in favour of 10 man guilds there too.

- I challenge every Blizzard employee/developer to go and look at a progression list of the raiding guilds on the primary server they play on. Compare the number of 25 player guilds who were active in T11 with those active in T12. Think back and remember how many of those guilds were then active in WotLK.

- In my experience, you're in a rare server if there's even one new 25 player guild that has lasted for a full tier. For 25 player guilds, there is nothing to look forward to but attrition because Bliz is providing no meaningful incentives to continue in this format and is instead "equalising" us out of existence by failing to take into account that the two formats are fundamentally not equal.
11/17/2011 03:19 PMPosted by Rapsidy
Can someone explain why they promised to up the ten man drops and instead nerfed them from one token 2 items to one token and one item and basically lying to the community?

You have a link to the Blue post saying they was "up the ten man drops"? The post I remember just said they was "we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better)". Tweaking drop rates and uping drops are two different things. I do agree that 1 token and 1 normal drop is a nurf though.

11/17/2011 03:19 PMPosted by Rapsidy
And wtf at 150 vp for dungeons and 100 for bosses, there is a reason many raiders avoid the lfd you know.

Well you still get more per time from downing raid boss then doing 5m. Maybe not on the first week but it will even out to be more once ppl start downing more bosses.
great, basically your trying to get everyone to quit PvE and go to PvP. Those people who cant find the time to raid because they have a family to feed are getting screwed over. and 50vp from firelands bosses?! if you were to reduce the vp given in raids, it needs to be 100vp from FL raid bosses and 50vp from the others because firelands is harder! if you want to promote the loot from bosses you need to make the LOOT better. this also takes out doing heroics for me, and is more likely to make me not play anymore because i cant give 5 hours to raiding and because i cant, i won't improve. gg blizz, i wonder how many players will quit and how much money you will loose because of this dumb change.
I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?

Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?


Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


I've been barking up this tree for weeks now since Blizzcon, but do you have any plans to fix the drop rates for the vanity mounts from Heroic Rag/Deathwing. Right now it takes 6 months for a 25-man guild to get all of their raiders mounts, vs a 10-man guild which takes 2 1/2 months. Take into account it's going to be a while before people actually start killing Heroic Rag, many 25-man raiders will probably not get their mounts.

After 10 weeks farming Heroic Rag mount:

10/10 = 100% of raid with mount
10/25 = 40% of raid with mount(15 weeks to go for 100%)

The solution is to allow 25-man heroic end bosses with a 100% drop rate to drop 2-3 mounts per clear, as opposed to the 1 it does now.

It was fine before that it only dropped 1, when 25-man was the only way to get it, now that they drop in 10-man raids, 25-man raiders will be forced into 10-man raiding just to acquire this mount if it's not corrected, which is against the design that both 10 & 25-man raiders can/should be able to raid how they want want.

Another solution would be to just tie it to the achievement.
11/17/2011 12:01 PMPosted by Pathogen
can you drop the cost of old stuff on the jp vendor now


and add t11/12 shoulder and head tokens to the jp vendor for transmogging
11/17/2011 10:40 AMPosted by Ellissia
There's only 1 cloth raid drop with spirit on it. What about holy priests that need valor points to get gear with spirit? It just seems shortsighted to reduce the amount of VP gained when there's very limited boss drops.


It seems that they don't like the class design of holy priests. So instead of nerfing them, they nerf them by gear.
Wow you guys have gotten pretty good insulting 25 man raiders (to the point they don't exist anymore). Now you add Rated BG's and Arena to the mix? What exactly is this game becoming? Is it even an MMO anymore? Can I just log in, use the Konami Code and get my purpz? I've been playing for over 7 years and I have never been more disgusted with the state of the game, and upcoming changes. You're doing an amazing job at killing your own game.
I just don't understand why you would continue to make things more difficult for raiding guilds. 25-man raiding guilds are already challenging to maintain in the face of a shrinking game population, which makes recruitment very challenging.

The fact that you're apparently applying this philosophy:


Our intent is to start acting even more on our Mists of Pandaria philosophies of encouraging players to approach the content they want to, how they want to, and be able to work toward meaningful player progression.


...to non-raiding content, and not to raiding content, is pretty frustrating. Players who prefer normal BGs can grind out Conquest there to their heart's content, but if I want to cap my Valor I have to go do something besides raid with my guild in current-tier content?

I'd think that given the subscriber losses, you'd be focused on making the game experience better for all players - instead it looks like you're focused on making the game experience better for non-raiding players, who will benefit from more people being forced to do LFR/LFD if they want to maximize their VP acquisition each week. You should be making it easier for guilds to keep their players motivated and engaged, not harder.

I feel like my guild is successful. I'm happy with our progress and our accomplishments. I'm committed to continuing to raid 25-mans until you actually post "guys we decided to cut 25-man raids". But lately it feels like we succeed in spite of your design decisions, where back in TBC I used to feel like we succeeded BECAUSE of them.
Yeah, its def easier to do 25 man raids am i right? So yeah, its obvious that when you defeat heroic ragnaros you're only allowed one mount for 25 mans, cause 10 man h rag is def harder.
When in reality, 10 man is a joke. The dps check for 1 meteor is ridiculous easy, the fact that like any dps check on 10m raids are unexistant - Baleroc pre nerf even didn't have a dps issue in 10m, where 25 you had to do the whole enrage mumbo jumbo to defeat him with hunters on top threat to deterrance tank and feign and iceblocks and whatnot.
So, with all that being said its pretty fair that 10 mans get better loot drops and can get mounts to all their raiders easier. /sarcasm, also before someone says i'm just mad i didn't get rags mount, I have it. Its just annoying knowing that half the people that worked HARD for it during months wont get it just cause we have 25 players for 1 mount a week rather than 10 for 1.
Ahh, I don't see 25 man guild lasting very long at this rate. Its one thing to award more valor points for running a 5 man dungeon than killing a 25 man boss. its a complete slap in the face to force raiders who clear the ENTIRE raid of Dragon Soul to have to do dungeons to finish their cap.

After all of the subscription loss, how can you still make these mistakes without thinking for just one moment?
11/17/2011 09:03 AMPosted by Dribble
One step closer to eliminating welfare tier!
Makes no sense a all.
I was longwinded but thorough before, I'll try to be more succinct in my distain for this move.

- The primary incentives to raid are social (your friends do it), reputation/ego (i killed X and you haven't) and loot.

- 25 player raiding is substantially more difficult to organise & schedule. Not slightly, but a hell of a lot. For every 2 of Blizzard's raider customers a 10 player guild keeps occupied, a 25 player guild is trying to keep 5 people occupied. That's a lot more demanding.

- The current loot differences between 10 & 25 are so insubstantial that only an accountant could love them. This equalises the rewards even further, without somehow managing to equalise the effort involved in forming 25 rather than 10. Things like equal mount drop rates actually actively penalise 25 man raiding.

- I do not think it is realistically possible for Blizzard to somehow make managing 25 people as easy to manage as 10 people. It's a fundamental scheduling issue, combined with the fact that it's naturally harder to get 25 people at the upper end of the skill 'bell curve' than it is to get 10 people.

- Therefore when 25's have more scheduling issues, a harder time not averaging down to a lower skill level, and equal rewards... what's the incentive? Only the epeen. And the perception is that 6/7 HM 10man is larger epeen points than 2 or 3/7 HM 25, so the trend is in favour of 10 man guilds there too.

- I challenge every Blizzard employee/developer to go and look at a progression list of the raiding guilds on the primary server they play on. Compare the number of 25 player guilds who were active in T11 with those active in T12. Think back and remember how many of those guilds were then active in WotLK.

- In my experience, you're in a rare server if there's even one new 25 player guild that has lasted for a full tier. For 25 player guilds, there is nothing to look forward to but attrition because Bliz is providing no meaningful incentives to continue in this format and is instead "equalising" us out of existence by failing to take into account that the two formats are fundamentally not equal.


ten mans you get so little loot that if that one person is gone for a night you can't raid cause if its a tank or healer you wont anyone to back up for say H rag. And let not for get 10 mans cant get every class, out raids have 0 locks and 0 boomkins so you know H rag for us is going to be oh so much fun.
Wow, I actually feel like a fool for signing up for the 1 year contract now. I thought the days of forcing people to do things to advance their characters they didn't want to do were over. I was completely wrong.

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