VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

General Discussion
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Dear Blizzard...
Your player base is screaming at you loudly! Will you listen? No one on either the casual or hardcore front is loving any of this HYPE you are trying to shovel down their throats. Either you guys fix this issue by listening to the players/dollars, or you get such a huge backlash that you release MoP too early and that causes even a bigger mass exodus from this game. Do you guys have someone on the inside working for EA and Bioware? I've defended you tirelessly against the flavor of the moment star wars pretty game. I can't anymore lol. Look how many people are pissed off in these threads! Piss them off worse and they'll probably just take their credit card off file and tell you to keep diablo and your mount just to stick it to you. For the record, i won't be jumping ship but if it ends up being as ridiculous as it seems it will be via the posts, I'll just dock permanently and go ashore.


there is plenty of people who like this change


To like the change is to say "I want to be forced into things".

If someone likes the 5 mans, they can do the 5 mans while the raids still cap valor, nothing is stopping them.

At this point, it's just more apologists and suck ups claiming Blizzard can do no wrong.
11/17/2011 09:43 AMPosted by Imthatguy
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


25s should be vastly more rewarding, not slightly.

When there's only a slight advantage, like what there is now, then 25 man guilds will keep dissappearing, like what's happened and has been happening since 10s and 25s started sharing lockouts at the end of Wrath. Now you're taking away an advantage 25s had, albeit a small one.

Why is Blizzard intent on driving away 25 man guilds? Trying to maintain a 25 man guild is one of the most stressful things most people have experienced in this, and quite possibly any other game. The rewards for doing so should be far greater than what they currently are.


Thanks i was trying to put what i was thinking in words and that pretty much says it all. There is getting to be less and less of a reason for people to want to run 25s... we get 2 pieces of loot and 1 tier more for having 2.5 times as many people and 100 times more stress in everything from rostering to fight mechanics.
I like the concept: gear up via boss drops. Get gear in Dungeons until you are ready for LFR, then regular raids, then hard modes. Therefor, Valor is less important.

However I think there are two problems. First, if Valor is no longer there to smooth out the sharp edges of RNG boss drops, then we should be able to make more attempts than one chance per boss per week and that would become the new method of grinding content for gear.

Also, LFR is far from proven to be a good way to gear up your character. LFR is going to either have huge communication issues or be ridiculously easy. Before making players reliant on LFR for gear, they really need to attach a competent audio chat feature to the game. If a fight doesnt need strategy discussions and mid fight coordination, then it will be a joke and very disappointing. If the fights actually are a little challenging, then communication amidst constant player drops and new players joining will be insanely frustrating. Attempts to coordinate mid fight instructions are also destined to failure.

I like the LFR concept. I just don't think the game is ready to rely on it as part of the endgame, gearing up process.
11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop.


I do not understand how it can be made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses when, as a holy priest, there is only one spirit cloth item that can drop (which may be replaced with tier), while other specs are at least eligible to obtain gear off the bosses.

Throughout FL only one cloth spirit item dropped, and that was via a random enchant. I did not like the idea of obtaining my gear via VP only because it doesn't feel good at all waiting to get a piece of gear after the raid instead of celebrating with my guildies when when drops. Yet, fewer valor points AND no loot drops? This does not feel fun at all.
There aren't even enough bosses in Firelands or Dragon Soul to cover all of the itemization needs with their loot tables, so why would you pick now as the time to make valor points "less important?" Some item slots don't even exist at the heroic level (non-cloth or non-plate-tank belts in Firelands, cloaks and necklaces in Dragon Soul, spirit cloth in both). In most other cases, there's only 1 item available for each slot, and that makes the gearing up "choices" significantly less meaningful.

If anything, you should add a Crystallized Firestone equivalent to heroic Dragon Soul bosses (with a more reasonable drop rate than firestones had) and allow us to use them to upgrade the VP gear to ilvl 410.

Also, the change you're proposing (as has already been pointed out countless times) does nothing to de-emphasize valor points, since the weekly cap is the same. The only thing it does is force raiders to run 5-man content that they otherwise wouldn't be interested in doing.
So all this rumor of no spirit cloth dropping in the next tier is getting me extremely, extremely worried. I was tolerant of the decision that was made last tier, although I empathize with those that cried out at the awful loot table decision making. I figured Blizzard has had a decent formula they were going to change things up and use priests as guinea pigs.

But, if there is no cloth spirit gear drops in the next patch and all the gear has to be earned through VP, then they'll be a major outcry in this community. I know for a fact I won't be raiding on this toon if this poor decision is made again! (and with BF3, Skyrim, 3rd party mods for it, LoZ, and eventually, D3, I will probably cancel my sub altogether.)

And with the valor grind going at a snail's pace, the whole mentality of gearing up through randomization drops of bosses, rumored even less drops of boss loot for 10 mans, everyone in the raid hurts but priests really, REALLY get the short end of the stick as this compiles on top of the whole "no cloth spirit" drops.

Please listen to the community. Yea, maybe we don't account for everyone that plays the game, but people that play the game don't even realize there is a public forum (or don't care) and when you implement these absurd changes they're going to be shocked at the very least.

I vehemently hate the idea of no cloth spirit drops from bosses. Please do not do this again.
Dev's i hope your reading these posts. 4.3 has to be a turning point for wow not more of the same we have seen in cata. And yet I'm now hearing less vp drop rates in DS with 1 piece of gear dropping from boss fights and only 2 in 25!!! Are you guys crazy??? It painfully obvious this is a delaying tactic til MOP which doesn't seem any better since hearing about healing and tanking changes and i shutter to think the atrocities you will commit to make arcane mages "better". Are you trying to kill off your player base?? This valor point change coupled with the fact of less loot is totally outrageous. I have tried to stick by and wait patiently hoping you would turn things around but after the past offenses such as the legendary staff quest line, pvp, firelands, the list goes on, I'm at my wits end. People in my guild were talking about swtor the other day. Saying how awesome it was and they're planning on joining and they "might" be raiding cata content. At first i thought i would either stick it out and continue wow, but after this valor change and now less gear period, I think my days on azeroth may be numbered....
After doing some gear lookups and some math, it will take me EIGHT (8) Weeks of Valor Capping in order to get all of the items I would like from the Valor Vendor, with 2 of those 8 weeks being me getting ZERO (0) items from Valor. I still want gear from Valor, and even the item slots I can ONLY get from Valor will take me a month. I don't feel the "lessened desire" to get Valor Points.

Is it intended that even players not attempting Heroic Raid Content should farm Raids and Dungeons for 8 weeks just to get the easiest gear?
11/17/2011 09:23 AMPosted by Bashiok
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


Maybe you can talk more about how you plan on meeting this goal. Because right now it certainly feels to me and my guildmates like we should begin looking for other games if we want a gameplay experience that can include more than 10 people at once.

It's very hard not to see things like:

--- a worse token:players ratio than 10-mans
--- diminished valor point rewards for raiding in general
--- the same number of mounts (not even the same ratio, the same number) as 10-man from bosses like heroic-Rag

...and so on as the writing on the wall for 25-man raiding.

Again, from my previous post in this thread: lately it feels like our guild is successful in spite of your changes to the game, which have frequently directly crippled our ability to recruit players by reducing the incentives to join a 25-man guild.

In TBC it felt like we could count on each patch to help us out - you removed keying requirements to let us recruit more players without having to backflag them for instances, added badges as a way for players to catch up gear-wise, etc. Every patch meant more new people who might be interested in 25-man raiding at our doorstep.

It feels like recently every patch running a 25-man guild becomes more challenging.
You guys are so full of you know what.

You want all players stuck on the gear treadmill with the carrot just out of reach for quite some time as this patch is probably the last new content we will see for over a year.

You want the best players stuck running 5 mans for valor so they can help carry as many fail players as possible through the content.

You want the better than average players stuck running FLR for that elusive tier piece to again carry the fail players.

You could care less about real 25 man raiding guilds anymore, yet you push as many random people together as possible in a 25 man raiding for retards format.

All of this is to try and keep as many player 'hooked' for as long as possible, while trying to push the better players to carry the fail players.

And heck, as for keeping people playing, you've already had to resort to bribing players with a free game, mount and beta key.

I for one am betting this strategy fails, and that sub numbers for the next several quarters fall even more.

I really hope you all pull your head out of your you know what before you do too much more damage to this game, because I would really like to be proven wrong.
Well great, I am still in a 353 helm cause i never got what I needed in the orriginal raids and none have droped in 4.2, soI will once again be without cause I can not spend vapor on one.

Way to exclude players who have bad luck on drops. You never seem to take into accoutn that some players never see the drop thay need for one item.

But what am I saying, it is just RNG, so it is fair. Right?

Once again the dev teams screws players who do not kill every boss every week for the entire patch. Thanks for keeping me stuck in out dated gear!
This is a huge backwards step. Players need to be able to earn gear that is both suitable and desirable as they work towards the final encounters of each raid. Valor gear fits in with the model of perserverance, practice and preparedness; the globally recognized PPP's of raiding.
The RNG model of "gearing up" does not. It is punitive in extremis and is seemingly counterfactual as you recieve gear that you no longer need, having already cleared the content.

Find different ways to provide the "fun factor" of a cool drop without punishing players with RNG. Mounts, recipes, materials, cosmetic gear, items with limited lifespans, titles, are all examples of things that could drop randomly that range from useful to just pure fun and are all desired by someone. Sure you could keep in the super dooper fabulous [Spaulders of Fantastic Proportions] as a fantatastic "OMG I want that I hope I get it!". Just keep the everyday going to work raiding in wow valor gear coming too.
11/17/2011 09:27 AMPosted by Hasslehooff
If you can slow down the rate at which people acquire gear, you keep them playing that much longer.


There you go, thats the reason for these changes. Anything said otherwise is just smoke and mirrors.
There aren't even enough bosses in Firelands or Dragon Soul to cover all of the itemization needs with their loot tables, so why would you pick now as the time to make valor points "less important?" Some item slots don't even exist at the heroic level (non-cloth or non-plate-tank belts in Firelands, cloaks and necklaces in Dragon Soul, spirit cloth in both). In most other cases, there's only 1 item available for each slot, and that makes the gearing up "choices" significantly less meaningful.

If anything, you should add a Crystallized Firestone equivalent to heroic Dragon Soul bosses (with a more reasonable drop rate than firestones had) and allow us to use them to upgrade the VP gear to ilvl 410.

Also, the change you're proposing (as has already been pointed out countless times) does nothing to de-emphasize valor points, since the weekly cap is the same. The only thing it does is force raiders to run 5-man content that they otherwise wouldn't be interested in doing.


This times a hundred. I'm so freaking frustrated. My spec has now been punished two tiers in a row. I've been punished enough. I'm not running stupid 5 mans. You want me to use raid gear, Blizzard? Then make my gear drop in raids instead of shoving itall on the valor vendor.
All this change does is force me to run Firelands every week to get 700VP until we're clearing Dragon Soul. Either that or I need to run a full set of Troll heroics AND normal heroics to cap out each week to stay competitive. Oh, and if I get subbed in for because someone wants achievements or specific loot...even more heroics I need to run.

Thanks...a lot. You just made Valor Points that much more of a pain in my butt to deal with.
I am going to try and attempt to be constructive about my criticism here as much as I can in the small hope that one of you at Blizzard will read it and take it into consideration since you all claim to read all the postings, however I don't see that as logistically possible unless you pay interns to do it. For the rest of you, I apologize in advance for critting you with a wall of text, and for you trolls or those who may disagree with me, I dont care what you have to say, this is a forum for saying opinions, just because you might not agree with said opinions, doesn't mean you have to make people feel like crap to express your opposition.

Disclaimer aside...

I don't see the logic in this decision outside of a way to artificially extend the longevity of this patch in prep for development on Mists of Pandaria. I look forward to the new expansion if you hold true to the marketing hype you doled out at Blizzcon, but perhaps someone should be flogged with a rubber hose in the project management area in screwing up timelines, because if its going to take that long between 4.3 and 5.0, it wont matter how much you try to extend its lifespan, people are going to grow bored and tired anyhow simply out of frustration in it being so "grindy" instead of due to finishing content.

I can't speak to 25 raids and the impact it will have on my guild from that perspective because I haven't had the ability to run 25 raids in my guild since 7 weeks after Cataclysm was released. That was officially the last time we as a guild were able to completely fill a 25 raid without pickup players to offset any vacancies. As such, we were forced to run 10's since that time which is a bit heartbreaking since we've been able to muster 20+ people since Vanilla. The dissatisfaction and frustration this expansion has become for most cost us many many good players who just dont feel it worth the time to play with all these artificial ceilings in place as well as some other unsuccessful changes. I say unsuccessful because they were, regardless if you count some minor success in part of it, the subscription numbers don't lie. At any rate thats a rant for another time and I digress...

For 10 raids right now as a casual guild, and OMG I said "casual" so trolls arm yourselves, our definition of casual is not what most people would label it as. Casual to us is: We take who wants to come based on proper roles required for raids (Tanks, Healers, DPS) and the number of those needing to be filled, not discriminating on class or spec or even prioritizing any type of "seniority" system, which means that the same people may not be there week after week thus taking us a little longer to move through content than most other raiding guilds would. I don't expect you folks at Blizzard to tailor the game for how we run our guild, however what we do has worked up until Cataclysm (thats right, we got all the way into Sunwell back in BC doing things like this).

Anyhow, my point here is how we run 10 raids now, and how you have somehow managed to undermine the "bring the player not the class" philosophy with some of these encounters, when we do start meeting success in progression level raids, RNG for gear absolutely sucks. 2 drops per boss is all fine and good, but when you carry no Pally healers and plate healing drops, congrats you just busted your !@# for nothing but a shard. In addition, our first Firelands Shannox kill dropped 2 items NO ONE could use (Feeding Frenzy & Bracers of the Dread Hunter). The ONLY thing that salvaged the victory from being a complete let down was the fact that 1) we did it being how we roll, and 2) we got some points out of the deal which could be used on items we could actually use. Now, you're telling us that we have to rely on an already horrible RNG system for drops for Tier pieces which are generally, save some exceptions, some of the better pieces for classes in this expansion. Meanwhile in the last 4 weeks of completely clearing Firelands normal for the shoulder and helm tokens for people, Staghelm has dropped Mantle of the Fiery Conqueror every time where the 1 priest and warlock we had with us now has a shoulder item for every spec they dont ever play. The problem of your RNG goes on for tiers past as well where we still have folks who just LAST WEEK finally got Nef to drop their T11 token.

So here I sit looking at this announcement and I sit in bewilderment as to how you expect me to believe that this change is for anything other than extending the 4.3 lifespan and think people like myself are actually going to be happy about you reducing the amount of valor we earn per boss which is the only thing that offsets a garbage RNG loot system in your raids more so for 10. Again, I cant speak to 25 raids, but my guess is with more drops per boss and a larger capacity for class spread, its usually likely something that drops will be useful to someone for at the very least the first few weeks of killing a boss. Meanwhile all hopes of balancing things out are being tied to an as of yet untried system which if LFG for heroics is any indication will not be this ultimate ease of acquiring gear as you seem to think its going to be. It's hard enough getting 5 people in a newly released heroic that know WTF to do and not wipe repeatedly in encounters and thats with a buff to dmg, health and healing. Now you want us to believe that an identical system that will allow raids will be more successful simply because the difficulty will be slightly tuned down and the ilvl for drops slightly lower than normal raid grouping. I guess I am just not privy to the Kool-Aid you guys have in the office to believe this will be as much of a savior system as you think it is. You're going to have the same issue there is with LFG right now in that those more experienced players arent going to want to use it simply because we dont want to have to take the random chance of putting up with stupidity of someone pulling a bunch of trash and then leaving group thinking its funny, a tank with "Hai guys I just hit 85 and amz Deathwing tank!", or any of the other nonsense and just rely on raiding with their guilds. With the weekly cap on points earned still in effect, there is no reason for them to do otherwise. Why waste time raiding with random people who 90% of the time turn out to be a**holes for slightly lesser quality gear when you can just wait, run with your guild and have a less stressful time?

I liked the ability to buy at least some of my tier items off the vendors when drops didn't cooperate with me, which as of yet, they never have. I'm betting a lot of other people felt the same way. In addition to that, people in our guild who couldn't commit to the same amount of play hours each week or had to take a week off here and there for real life could still spam heroics for some points when they could and almost catch up in gear so they could be successful in our raiding when they returned. Now that you're limiting the way we can get this gear to only raid bosses, I foresee many more players getting frustrated and seeing no point to play and people who may need to step away for a time for RL issues being left to feel left behind even more.

One of you in the Dev department, maybe it was GC said some time ago that the objective in WoW is to improve your character and gear was one of the main ways. When you make the attainment of that gear such a damn chore and grind, people are going to grow tired and fed up with the process before they complete it because in the end, this is a game, not a job. I heard all about how there will be multiple ways to attain gear and you dont want it to just be raids on the Panels and presentations at Blizzcon this year, and this change right here tells me all that talk was a bunch of BS, because this is the direct opposite of that claim.
Is it really so hard to see that what people loved about Wrath was that it was easy? It gave us time to play and gear alts which changed the tedium of the game with a refreshing level of variety from week to week.

It's hard enough to find 10man groups nowadays and 25mans have been virtually killed off. If you're having trouble keeping the game challenging enough for a minority of players then make a "nightmare mode", but please keep the game accessible so we're not stuck months on end playing the same toon.

Some of the best people I've met in this game are "bads". I miss them and want them back.
Agreed. In past expansions I had the time and desire to play alts which kept me busy and playing for months and months keeping the game somewhat "fresh". In this expansion I just don't have that desire, the alts I have took some time to gear up for raid ready and right now I only have 1, a second on its way. Both were born out of necessity in case we need a role filled on a guild raid someone isnt available for.

Im not clamoring for "easy mode" and honestly some parts of Wrath may have been cake but a lot of it I found challenging but also enjoyable. Ulduar without a doubt has to be my favorite instance in Wrath and one of the top of the game overall. The design, detail, boss fights, everything was well laid out and you could tell care was taken in its design. I like challenge as much as anyone else, challenge keeps the game interesting, but there seems to be some sort of design philosophy at Blizzard in dealing in extremes. Like trying to do precision woodcraft work with a chainsaw, nothing is ever just enough, its always not enough or too much.

The most successful raids in this game in my opinion were in BC. The fights were challenging, tho Vashj and Kael were a little bit of a guild killer roadblock. Mana counted, you couldn't just /yawn spam your way to healing victory, tank damage was realistic and not "OMG WAS THAT A FREIGHT TRAIN THAT HIT ME!?!?!" and stats overall weren't so ridiculously inflated. Cata didnt do that in raids tho the claim was it was going to go back to that level of intensity and challenge, instead we got Interrupt or Die fight gimmicks.

Back then killing an end instance boss for me was noteworthy and impacting. I remember our first Vashj kill, Kael kill and Illidan kill and how the victory was such a rush, no one in the group gave a damn if items dropped were sharded because the trip and effort to get there was so well earned it felt awesome to beat those fights. Even the bosses along the way felt like a rush from the victory. Since then, I havent had that feeling at all. Closest ive gotten is "thank god we got that guy down, that fight was such a pain in the !@#". The sense of satisfaction from defeating these encounters has just been lost in a sea of everything but the kitchen sink being thrown at you under the guise of "challenge". Thats why those people left, when you design a fight so that one minor mistake causes a raid wipe regardless who it is, no one wants to feel that kind of pressure from a game.
11/18/2011 05:26 PMPosted by Shadowwolf
If you can slow down the rate at which people acquire gear, you keep them playing that much longer.


There you go, thats the reason for these changes. Anything said otherwise is just smoke and mirrors.


but it is a lie. No gear = limited sucess raiding = less fun = fewer players raiding and fewer players playing, and fewer subscriptions. Cata = a large subscription loss, because stuff was not fun, do to it being to hard. No boss killing = no new gear = no fun!

VP is the only way I get gear sometimes. It has been 2 months since any Mail Int/Spirit gear has droped. I have yet to see a tier token from 4.2 for shaman, and with 4.3 just around the corrner i will be starting a new tier in some 353 and 359 gear cause I just never seem to get drops.

Limiting gear selection to boss drops means I wil not be getting any drops! Or damn few of then anyways.

Blizz can go to ... over their Ideas about how gear should be aquired. They got no clue about what really happens to some players and they do not care!
Dear Blizzard...
Your player base is screaming at you loudly! Will you listen? No one on either the casual or hardcore front is loving any of this HYPE you are trying to shovel down their throats.


Don't speak for me please.


Get over yourself... did i specifically single you out? No. If you stare hard enough do you see your name? No.

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