VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

General Discussion
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11/17/2011 09:03 AMPosted by Dribble
One step closer to eliminating welfare tier!


Not really, LFR gear will be considered 'welfare' by many I'm sure.

I don't mind it. Even if its on easy boss mode, I'd personally rather kill a raid boss for gear than run a bunch of 5 mans over and over to save up for the piece. That way we can use our VP to get off pieces more so than the more expensive tier pieces.

And I get to actually raid.
I think this is bull doodoo...
Did you ever think how long it takes to aquire 2 sets of gear for people like me, that not only tank, but DPS aswell for fights that require 1 tank only...
it takes forever and now it seems its gonna take even longer... bleh cata is a big failure... honestly i was happier with how wrath was... everything worked better... well up to the time where they merged raid lockouts and what not... not happy right now at all...


I would have loved if they kept how gear worked the way they did it during ICC... BUT, it's a new patch, and just like every new patch since the inception of the badge of justice back in TBC, the system has to get pointlessly changed, EVERY patch.
It seems to be one announcement contradicts the spirit of the other.

On the one hand (valor), you're saying - no guys you have to actually do the highest content in order to get the highest rewards. On the other hand (conquest), you're saying - no guys you don't have to do the highest content - just spam random battlegrounds and brute force your way to the highest gear.

I'd like to ask that you clarify the reason for these two contradictory messages - both announced simultaneously no less. =/


Because PvP doesn't have some "end" point, you always fight new people or your fights always go differently.

PvE isn't the same, once you see it all, it doesn't change. This is the last raid of Cata, and they're doing their darnedest to pad it out for as long as possible.

I agree though, one change says "Raid or die, one method to gear up". The other change says "Don't worry, here's other methods of gearing up"

Just like the fact that a PvE player can convert Valor to Conquest and buy PvP gear, but a PvPer can't convert Conquest to Valor to get PvE gear. It's all hypocritical one-sided crap.
On a very clear cut note, I'd like to say that extra VP is simply an unwarranted benefit as you can accidentally break the current cap on it weekly in 10 man raiding, so cry less about that. I am interested however in how 25's would benefit more short of perhaps... a certain skullduggery class legendary maybe being completed sooner? <3 In any case, more loot, 25 man for better chances. 10 man for the same raid with less likely chances of your loot. Oh and Love ya Bashiok! wtb Diablo 3.
Beside all the things people have already said, the loot system drops are really screwed...for example Since FL, I have never seen a drop of the ring from Alysrazor not once...and they keep giving loot sometimes no one of the group can use...so all the tier now will be by drop? How many kills are we going to need to that happen and also then when is a solid group it repeats and repeats so much the drop that is unreal I dont like this ideas unless you do something about how drops work, try to make something more than a randomize with rates please
11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
We appreciate your thoughts and constructive discussion on how these changes may affect you and your guild once 4.3 is released.
Is the weekly cap the same? I don't care if the acquisition rate is slower, I just want to catch up to that 50,000 achievement one of those days.
11/17/2011 10:56 AMPosted by Selkeith
Beside all the things people have already said, the loot system drops are really screwed...for example Since FL, I have never seen a drop of the ring from Alysrazor not once...and they keep giving loot sometimes no one of the group can use...so all the tier now will be by drop? How many kills are we going to need to that happen and also then when is a solid group it repeats and repeats so much the drop that is unreal I dont like this ideas unless you do something about how drops work, try to make something more than a randomize with rates please


Isn't that actually the exact reason that they put the tier sets on the badge vendors, just at a lower ilevel? To guarantee that everyone will be able to get their set that some balance does go into?
11/17/2011 09:54 AMPosted by Fippfuzz
Also can we get clarification on the current number of items dropping on the 10 man PTR versions of dragonsoul? Is it intended to drop tier+1 item per token boss?


Bosses in 10m drop 2 items like usual, the only thing they changed was tier counts as an item instead of a bonus item. For example while Majordomo dropped 2 items and a piece of tier Warlord Zon'ozz drops 1 piece of a tier and 1 item. Whats worse is there is a couple items that can drop from all of the first 6 bosses (shared loot bag etc). So pretty much 10's is gonna take forever to gear up especially with non tier pieces (bracers/wrist/belt etc) because most bosses only drop 1 item per week (with a tier).

11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.


Honestly this VP change makes no sense. You are lowering the amount of VP you get because you believe the need for VP won't be as high except you lowered the amount of non tier drops per boss and made tier take an item slot from bosses as well. This only increases our need for VP to fill in the gaps we will have from the lessened drop rates and force us to run the new 5 mans to get capped every week.

All this change does is make us run the new 5 mans to get capped, thats all it does. There are many items that are BiS for many classes from VP and some of us will just have to buy offset pieces cause the drop rates will be terrible.

I remember way back one of the blue's saying they were gonna fix 10m's issue with drops and how slow we gear up -.-
I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?

Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?


Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


There is only one cloth spirit piece in the entire dragonsoul raid. So a priests only insentive is the Tokens and VP vendors, meaning the nerf to VP hurts us the most.

Are there any plans to address this?
I think they said the cap was going up to 1k a week
This is a terrible idea.

As a holy priest, the complete lack of spirit gear in Dragon Soul forces me to look to VP and tailoring for 397 gear. I am going to need at least 5 pieces from VP and 1 piece from tailoring. As far as heroic gear, I'm either going to have to do what I did in t12, and take several non-spirit pieces, or stay with my 397s because there's no other option.

Actually, my heroic BIS gloves are shadow priest t13 -- thanks, Blizz.

Forcing me to run dungeons or old raids for weeks to cap my VP is incredibly frustrating, especially in light of the total failure to put drops I need on raid bosses.

There is absolutely no "reduced demand" for VP for cloth spirit gear wearers.
11/17/2011 10:56 AMPosted by Selkeith
Beside all the things people have already said, the loot system drops are really screwed...for example Since FL, I have never seen a drop of the ring from Alysrazor not once...and they keep giving loot sometimes no one of the group can use...so all the tier now will be by drop? How many kills are we going to need to that happen and also then when is a solid group it repeats and repeats so much the drop that is unreal I dont like this ideas unless you do something about how drops work, try to make something more than a randomize with rates please


Well from my experience playing off and on since the game released, you're crying about going back to a system they had already been using for years. If I recall, even Naxxramas in Wrath, used a pure token system, no? Now, as nice as a 'smart' loot system would be, even that could cause some complications, as it could damned well drop the same items every week because you brought X class, with Y spec; and you would complain about it not dropping your item. Sounds like you want it all handed directly to you.
its a nice idea but itll backfire on us players even harder.. now ppl hit 85 and expect to only get geard from raids and dont want to put an effort to getting ready for raids gear wise.. as in AH gear crafted or grinding dungeons to get the gear to be of some use in raids.. but with this on ppl not being able to get much valor gear as much its gonna force ppl to join raids with pvp gear or that lvling gear which is gonna make random raids full of really undergeard players and make it unenjoyable and painfull. i understand valor nerf on old content tho.
The "logistical" challenges don't exist for 25 man like you think they do. If they were so much more difficult, LFR would be 10 man instead. I've run both 10 and 25 man raid groups and without a doubt in my mind, the challenges of "logistics" is much more prevalent in 10 man groups.

Even if we assume that 25 man raids take more effort, then why do you reward the entire group for the extra struggle of 1-2 people?
This change to the tier pieces, and the reduction of valor points is going to harm my raiding group even more. And we don't see the raid finder as a solution either.

Our issue is that due to the decline the game is now in, we had to downsize from our normal 25 man runs to 10. We do have more then 10 show up willing to raid, and have a rotation system in place to try and keep it fair. This rotation, and 2 loot items vs 5 slows our ability to gear up properly. At least with 4.2, if the item we needed for players didn't drop, they had valor points that could be used to close the gap. And the bonus tier items above the two drops helped as well.

We suffer because our realm has never been a very populous one. We've tried recruiting, only to lose people again as they become frustrated with our rotation setup. And having the guild transfer realms is just unfeasible with the current rates charged per player. To truly keep our setup, most players would need to pay for multiple characters to move. And this doesn't address the financial burden we place on those members who enjoy our guild but don't raid. We've also considered a guild merge, but with the 4.0 guild perks system, one side has to give up the ground they made, and it's another barrier to deal with.

Raid finder is simply going to bring in random people with no sense of guild ownership. In time, we may perhaps convince them to fork over real money to transfer, but we feel that's not the right thing to do. Why would we impose on someone else to pay to transfer to a small server? If things don't work out, they then get stuck, frustrated and possibly leave the game.

Blizzard, I understand that at the end of the day, you run a business, and have needs to make money off your work. I also understand that the character transfer fees have subtle ties to reducing some of the gold selling issues and other bad elements. However, if the character transfer system is kept in tact going forward, while players accumulate more characters such as future Monks, the cost simply keeps rising. At some point, people will hit the break point and quit, removing any source of revenue you earn from these people. Please do something to address the server issue.

The other point I will make regarding it, is that I've spent years playing the game. In that time, I've made new friends, and want to play with them too. The server transfer barriers only make the situation worse as time goes on. Please consider something like a free transfer for loyal customers, or the occasional reduced cost one. Other newer MMOs have some great ideas about allowing friends to play together that you could also borrow from.

I write this because I'm frustrated. I don't get to raid as often as I would like due to our rotation, and I have less fun due to it. I can't share raid experiences with everyone in our group now, and the same goes for the others I play with. We want to be challenged, we want to have fun, and we want to remain Blizzard supporters. But it's becoming more and more difficult.
Why is only PvP getting the "Play how you want" treatment?

Why can PvP players run non-top end content (random BGs) and gear up with lower ilvl versions of PvP sets come 4.3, but PvE'ers can't, when we could in Wrath? (Specifically, the ToC/ICC model, where we bought 1 set, then upgraded it in normal raids, then upgraded it in heroics)

I just don't get why, in the middle of a massive subscriber bleed, you guys keep putting out more and more "Play longer, grind more" philosophy changes.
Amen, Aldiara. That's the real problem: there's no rewards for non-raiding PvE players other than raid gear, or put another way, there's no rewards for hard-core raiders other than gear.

I don't know what the hard-core* raiders would be happy with, other than gear. But get creative. Maybe a weekly and monthly hall of fame which puts their names in lights for everyone to see, with the bragging rights as well: "I was the top raider this month. Go see for yourself." Or I hold the monthly record for kills/clears/shortest time. Or, maybe free transmogrification to any gear in existence. Something.

*hard-core raiders -- if you raid 2 times per week, or 5 to 8 hours per week, and call yourself "casual", you are still hard-core in my definition. To me, casual is someone who has a real life and is very lucky to find the 5 hours needed to try to clear BWD once a month -- if even that often. I think the vast majority of players numerically (not by in-game time) are in my definition of casual.
Seriously?
In all of our Chogall kills, my shoulder piece dropped maybe once, and it went to a holy paladin.
In all of our Staghelm kills, my shoulder piece dropped 3 times, first time to a prot pally, 2nd time to a shadow priest, and I *Finally* got mine last week.

All of our druids and warriors have every tier piece for their shoulders, and their offspecs, and now we're randoming them for gold.

You need to drastically increase the amount of gear that drops on 10 man difficulty if you're removing Valor Points as an avenue of advancement.

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