VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

General Discussion
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So you will be unable to cap vp by clearing Dragon Soul, but you are able to cap by running 5 mans? Am I reading that right? Silly Blizzard and your nonsensical reasoning for such changes that make no sense.
11/17/2011 09:12 AMPosted by Arielle
If you're trying to reduce the desire for VP items, stop putting our BiS gear there.

This.

/sigh

Not looking forward to battling the RNG Boss for my tier pieces. :|
I thought the purpose of Valor Point was to give a potential reward for the crappy RNG loot system that people have to face in raids. On my holy Pally I have killed Bethalic 11 without even seeing the healing shield, my warrior has killed Shannox a comparable amount with no weapon, so the point of having valor gear is still there. If you want to have raid gear trump valor gear then itemize the raid gear better, but fixing the loot system so people don't go 11 kills without seeing their item would make valor unnecessary all together.
This would be cool except 10 man loot rng is !@#$ing horrible. Took us a good 2-3 months for prot tokens to even drop. I mean we get vanq every other time and people have it for all of their specs and then some. Plus all we literally ever get is caster leather/mail. So we're gonna gear slow as %^-* while having loot drop nobody ever needs. Suhweet.
11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.


The desire for any currency is directly proportional to the items that can be acquired using it, so Blizzard sets that limit. The market would and should set the acquisition rate, so your statement makes no sense.

I believe, as others do, that the reason for this change is because Blizzard wants to stretch out 4.3 as long as possible. In reality, the patch won't have much viability past a couple of months if what we've seen so far is any indication and for a dissatisfied customer base that isn't going to cut it.

Nor, will lame statements such as the one I quoted confuse anyone about why you're doing this. Blizzard would do far better imho, if they treated their customers as intelligent beings and simply say, we don't have much coming out until the next expansion but we hope you'll all enjoy what we're offering.

Why doesn't Blizzard offer something to interested gamers for 'Realm Events' created by players but with GM drops (cache) established ahead of time. The events would happen in SW and Org and could be pvp or something like the zombie events pre Wrath. Something to keep folks interested until MoP goes live.
So now there is simply little incentive at all to run 25 mans, since they are more difficult for the average guild, with mechanics more difficult to manage and groups harder to get together and organize. The extra loot is hardly incentive, considering in 25 man you get 5 pieces per boss, which is 1 per 5 people. 10 man gets 2 pieces which is also 1 per 5 people. Not much of a difference.

???


too bad there is almost NONE spirit cloth drop, yet again.

11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop.
You should really just tell the truth that you want things to be a bigger time sink.
I think in some small part this is a bad idea to lower VP points. I also think that you think the LFR finder is going to be a success, I really have my doubts on this being a good think. I mostly raid on one character in a given week because mentally even with the raid content being easier there are just way to many idiots play this game. Now in 4.3 you are going to want me to que for raids not only with the people that suck on my present server, but across servers as well.

I have 8 other alts I like to get gear for, but I really hate using the LFD finder and having to que up with people that have absolutely no idea what they are doing, let alone the fact they have no idea how to play there class. VP and or JP points are away around this for me. Don't get me wrong here I do not like to be given stuff, but having to indore the stupidity of others is in some small way a consolation to aquiring gear.

I cringe everytime I que for a random. It is not like "a box of chocolates". I know what I am going to get. FAILURE! When a group can barely clear the first group of trash in a dungeon, let alone a boss. This is extremely bad. Now throw those exact people into a LFR and that is going absolute nothing but greif.

I do not mind working hard to aquire my gear, but there needs to be a better way to get gear than have to keep queing endlessly with people that suck. Yes, I remember what it use to be like, but it did not have to be that way either.

Make it difficult to aquire gear yes, impossible no. Not only are you competing with the RNG gods, but the stupidity of other to aquire that gear through the dungeon finder. Frankly, I find using the LFD as bad as pugging a dungeon or a raid from trade.

Yes, I wish I could run every dungeon or raid through my guild, but that is just impossible not everyone has 8 or 10 characters to run on a weekly basis. I use the VP and or JP's as a jumping point to be able to raid, not the other way around. I would probably raid even more to get the better gear, but I do not see lower the amount of VP's and the LDR being a good thing for this game.







Nerf the "Looking for Groups" VP drop rates. Dont Screw over the raiders that have to deal with RNG and multiple people rolling when something does drop.
So now there is simply little incentive at all to run 25 mans, since they are more difficult for the average guild, with mechanics more difficult to manage and groups harder to get together and organize. The extra loot is hardly incentive, considering in 25 man you get 5 pieces per boss, which is 1 per 5 people. 10 man gets 2 pieces which is also 1 per 5 people. Not much of a difference.

???


Honestly not true at all. My guild was 25 till we exploded a 2 months or so after firelands came out. 25 mans are muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh better for loot, I promise you. I wish I could go back to 25s.
To the person you were originally quoting, I have to ask. I was an ok raider in vanilla, never got far. I raided quite hardcore in TBC and took a break from raiding over most of Wrath. Why does it bother you oh so much that people got the lower ilvl tier items from badges?

I mean, that clearly makes it that you don't raid for the enjoyment or the guild interaction, you raid solely to play "Virtual Superiority Complex" over lower geared players.

I wouldn't care if Heroic Rag drops came from Stonecore, I play for the excitement of fighting that boss, for the great times raiding with my guild, NOT for the feeling of riding my high horse around town in a video game, and that excitement comes to me regardless of what other people are doing or the items they're obtaining.




I don't see how you can say that I don't raid for pleasure and that I only raid for some “Virtual Superiority Complex”. I do both... I had the same feeling killing Gruul in TBC that I had killing H Rag. There's this tremendous sense of relief and pride that you get when you've worked with a group of people for weeks or months at a time and then you finally accomplish something, especially if it's something that fewer people have done yet. Ultimately it's this feeling that I get from working with people for weeks or months at a time driving me to keep playing this game despite any issues I may have with it, including my dislike of VP granting tier.

Still, I do like going into five mans and being complemented on a title or mount or piece of gear that I've picked up. It's a nice bonus for the time that I've invested. At the same time, looking at other players with better gear/titles/mounts than me makes me want to do better and work harder, out of something of a mix between jealousy and admiration. When everybody can get everything and it's impossible to tell whether someone has a piece of gear from raiding or from doing five mans, difficult feats become harder and harder to recognize. Why give 110% of my effort when 100% is good enough? Or 50%? Or 10%?
11/17/2011 11:46 AMPosted by Gunny
So what do non-raiders do for gear progression after they get their heroic drops? What's the incentive to keep them playing?


Instead of asking for different progression paths to bleed into another to keep us playing, we should be asking Blizzard for real, different progression paths.

At this point, allowing VP gear from LFD is simply an attempt by Blizzard to be as lazy as they can be, and offering up pretty pixels and higher numbers as a reward for us putting up with their laziness.

Non-raiders don't need raid gear, they need Blizzard to improve their progression path.

I'm still surprised at the amount of people who are happy to run the same 2 heroics day in, day out, for months on end. Are our entertainment standards and expectations of Blizzard so low?
I raid, and i enjoy it. However, forcing people to do so is nuts. Have you guys seen the disaster in the troll dungeons for that dog ugly 353 loot? People still FAIL miserably in those instances. LFR is not going to fix this either. In fact, the more likely scenario is more nerdrage and incomplete fights due to incompetence, and nerdrage and incomplete fights because of bad rng for some. I would suggest you guys please ,please take a long hard look at what you are doing. The Casuals out there are your highest number of subscriptions, and if you force them to only be able to raid and succumb to bad PuGs and even worse RNG, you are going to create a huge turnoff to the very thing you have so much faith in..You know these two things are going to happen, you have to! Why not do the tier sets in spirit of wrath during the ICC season? JP tier gear, even better "Sanctified" gear via one token a pop, or "Heroic sanctified" again at one token a pop. When i ran ICC, seeing a dk with all 251s was cool and all, but when you saw the heroic 277 dk tearing it up, you knew he was going to be better based on content difficulty alone. Don't start gimping rewards to the casuals to force them into something that is already looking to be worse than ZA/ZG times five. It can be accomplished without sacrificing the hardcore being the most shiney. Just my 0.02
11/17/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Nuraine
I raid, and i enjoy it. However, forcing people to do so is nuts. Have you guys seen the disaster in the troll dungeons for that dog ugly 353 loot? People still FAIL miserably in those instances. LFR is not going to fix this either. In fact, the more likely scenario is more nerdrage and incomplete fights due to incompetence, and nerdrage and incomplete fights because of bad rng for some. I would suggest you guys please ,please take a long hard look at what you are doing. The Casuals out there are your highest number of subscriptions, and if you force them to only be able to raid and succumb to bad PuGs and even worse RNG, you are going to create a huge turnoff to the very thing you have so much faith in..You know these two things are going to happen, you have to! Why not do the tier sets in spirit of wrath during the ICC season? JP tier gear, even better "Sanctified" gear via one token a pop, or "Heroic sanctified" again at one token a pop. When i ran ICC, seeing a dk with all 251s was cool and all, but when you saw the heroic 277 dk tearing it up, you knew he was going to be better based on content difficulty alone. Don't start gimping rewards to the casuals to force them into something that is already looking to be worse than ZA/ZG times five. It can be accomplished without sacrificing the hardcore being the most shiney. Just my 0.02


This
The biggest issue that I've always had with raiding, and that I'm sure many other people have with it, is the random drops from bosses. For instance, my raid has been running Firelands for many months now, and our tanks have desperately wanted the belt that drops off of Shannox, the first boss that we killed. Months later, and our alts all have the Goblet offhand, but our tanks still lack their belts. There are alternatives, such as the rep belt, but why should we have to perpetually see our tanks (or any player) not get the item they want, while everyone else has already obtained the items of their choice.

There is a simple solution that I can't believe still has not been implemented. Have each boss drop some sort of token that any player can win, and that token can be used on a select loot list. In the long run, this guarantees that if you are able to consistently kill a boss, then everyone gets what they want. Fewer Maelstrom Crystals, more useful loot.
Others have already said this, but I think it needs to be re-emphasized.

The problem isn't VP gear, or the amount of VP rewarded from anything ... it's the boss loot drops. That is what really needs to be fixed.

You want people to have that desire to raid and kill bosses to get the best gear, but the RNG system does not work for it. Waiting all week to get back to a tier boss just to see it drop a "warrior, hunter, shaman" token when there are no warriors, hunters, nor shaman in the raid is ridiculous ... and an insult. Going months without EVER seeing the item you NEED drop, is an insult as well. Seeing the same item drop off a boss every single week and going straight to DE, is an insult.

With pure "RNG", the items we need may never drop. Something that has a 15% chance to drop has a 85% chance that it will NOT drop ... those odds suck.

Every time a player downs a boss, there are only X number of items that their class can use. If nothing drops that the player can use, then there should be a slighly increased chance that something will drop for them (or their class/spec) the next time. Each additional time they down that boss and don't get gear for their class/spec, that chance would continue to increase. This would make it a certainty that the player will eventually get what they need. Having that certainty gives players hope. Having something to look forward to will keep people playing this game longer ... not by forcing them to repeat content over and over and over without any guarantee that they'll get something for their time other than another $15 bill at the start of the next month.

So, in conclusion ... if you don't fix the boss loot RNG issues, then these VP changes are a very bad idea. It already takes forever to get all the VP gear given the weekly cap. Making it take even longer in addition to getting squat from boss drops, is, again, an insult.

Cheers!
11/17/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Sjæl
Instead of asking for different progression paths to bleed into another to keep us playing, we should be asking Blizzard for real, different progression paths.


Exactly this. I would absolutely love to see separate progression paths for 25s, 10s, BGs, arenas, 5-mans, and even epic solo quest chains!

EDIT: It's noteworthy to consider that, we are going to be seeing something similar to a separate progression path for 5-mans in 5.0 through the Challenge Mode system and I'm hugely stoked for this.

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