VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

General Discussion
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but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for [raiders] since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


I can't so much speak to Valor in 25 mans, but this seems to be another hurdle to running serious 10 mans.

You guys first stated that you were moving towards "bring the player, not the class" many, many moons ago, yet that idea has yet to fully be realized. To offset this inherent disadvantage, many competitive 10 man raiding groups have multiple players capable of doing multiple jobs.

10 mans get 2 drops per boss, thus a much higher chance of getting screwed by the RNG than in 25s (5 or 6 drops). To offset this, we can use Valor to be sure that our effort is being rewarded and that we are as capable of playing second (and sometimes third) specs to counter our much narrower spread of class/specs compared to 25s.

I don't mean this to be a qq, we have it worse than ANYBODY type of post, but Valor has a legitimate use for 10 man raiding groups to add flexibility to sometimes stringent raid requirements, especially for hybrid classes. I'm sure Rogues, Hunters, and Mages couldn't care less, but the classes that are needed in multiple roles sure do.

Edit: If raid drops, which you say you want to emphasize, were more consistent with the classes actually in the raid, the valor issue would seem like a much softer change. We are currently punished in 10 mans for not bringing certain classes when gear drops for them that no-one in the raid can use.
11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.


Have you guys gone mad? You are going to force raiders into 5mans to cap VP?

You are rewarding 150 VP from ANY HEROIC DUNGEON, but 100 from RAID BOSSES.

Is that what VP is now... no longer the raid points, but the 5man points (and the soon-to-be daily quest points). Please continue with these kind of changes... you know the ones THAT FORCE PLAYERS FROM 25MAN RAIDS INTO 5MAN DUNGEONS... I promise you that will not work out well.

Is that the goal of these changes? To make raiders completely miserable? Because if I am forced to run 5mans I will hate this game. There will not be 1 happy moment in all of patch 4.3 because it will all be sullied by the fact that I was forced to run 5mans I didn't need... All patch long.
We've made slight adjustments to the Valor Point (VP) drops on the 4.3 PTR which testers can now see. In both 10- and 25-player raids, bosses will now drop 100 VP each (down from 115 and 135 respectively). We’ll also be changing Firelands raid bosses to drop 50 VP per kill upon release of the patch.

This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.

We appreciate your thoughts and constructive discussion on how these changes may affect you and your guild once 4.3 is released.


I think that Blizzard's expectations of LFR are a bit too high. They don't take into account the lack of patience most folks have for people learning new, overly complicated fights. Due to the ragequit/kick atmosphere I have for the most part shunned heroics and VP gear and frankly (though I hope I'm wrong) do not see that changing with 4.3.
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding

Then why do 10 and 25s have the exact same drop rate for mounts and Crystalized Firestones, despite 25 man raids having to divide those assets amoung over twice as many people?

Also, Isn't there only 7 bosses in Dragonsoul? So even if we full clear, we'll only get 700vp now from raiding, so you are forcing raiders into 5 mans in addition to raiding no matter what to vp cap? Not sure I see the point of forcing that on them.

11/17/2011 12:25 PMPosted by Poena
We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.


Have you guys gone mad? You are going to force raiders into 5mans to cap VP?

You are rewarding 150 VP from ANY HEROIC DUNGEON, but 100 from RAID BOSSES.

Is that what VP is now... no longer the raid points, but the 5man points (and the soon-to-be daily quest points). Please continue with these kind of changes... you know the ones THAT FORCE PLAYERS FROM 25MAN RAIDS INTO 5MAN DUNGEONS... I promise you that will not work out well.

Is that the goal of these changes? To make raiders completely miserable? Because if I am forced to run 5mans I will hate this game. There will not be 1 happy moment in all of patch 4.3 because it will all be sullied by the fact that I was forced to run 5mans I didn't need... All patch long.



Trust me, the casual 5 man people who sometimes raid will be miserable when they see this disaster of LFR. Raiders will be forced to pug 5 mans to get the cap to fill in ilvl gaps, and the casuals who would like to experience the new boss fights and play well when they can join and commit to the raids completely turned off by the 25 man pugs when you have terrible drop rates and even more bad players/attitudes. Not really fair to the casuals or hardcore if you ask me.
My feelings on this have been stated several times already in this thread. But you DID ask for feedback, so I'm posting just to add my voice to the many who have commented on the capricious RNG, and how un-fun it is to be beholden to it.

I understand that there's a sense of accomplishment or 'epicness' when a boss drops gear that you can use. I'm just about as happy to see a fellow guildie get a hard-earned boss drop too. But killing bosses over and over again, only to see gear drops that can't be used by ANYONE in the raid, changes the experience from 'epic' to 'frustrating.' In a slow, incremental, thumbscrew kind of way.
11/17/2011 09:12 AMPosted by Eridan
and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses


I think you may be vastly overestimating how well the Raid Finder is going to work when you're making these plans. Right now it mostly seems to be allowing people to wipe on Morchok once or twice before the calls of "U ALL BADS" and the ragequits begin.


I don't think that'll change much when it goes live either. Bringing 25 strangers together with no method of communication, no chemistry, no consequence other than getting raid-kicked.. Yeah, this is a recipe for disaster. I'll try it anyway, and if it's used to fill the last few spots those will be great runs. If it's 25 solo players, it's gonna go REAL bad.
I would be totally fine with this change if you buffed or improved the drop rates from raids. But instead you nerfed them in both 10 and 25 by decreasing the amount of drops from bosses and didn't "fix" the 10m issues with loot like you said you were planning to do. At least change the tier tokens and remove the class requirements on them (this is desperately needed in 10m).

Terrible change is terrible

As for the people saying LFR is terrible, in the beginning it was terrible but that was because people could abuse the glitchy kicking methods and a lot of people were playing premades and didn't know their class. They have nerfed them pretty hard recently (past 2 weeks) to where they are easier if not on par with current trolls. They also increased the ilvl requirement to even que from 365 to 372 which is very nice. They removed some mechanics and nerfed damage/health by a lot (about 20-25%). It still can be hard without a good leader, but if someone steps up and leads and tells people what to do it isn't bad at all. Just que with some people to make it easier.
11/17/2011 12:34 PMPosted by Gunny
Funny, I feel the same way but from the other side. Forcing me to run even more 5 mans per week to get valor points, but not allowing me any access to Tier gear with those VPs to force me into using the new LFR tool.


You'll still get the same Valor from 5mans. More valor for time spent in 5mans than time spent in raids (I can clear a random non-troll 5man in 10-20min).
These changes (in this thread) only affect raiders... so what exactly are you complaining about?

Also if you don't want to raid... then what do you need tier gear for? 5man gear and VP for 5mans is more than you'll ever need.
I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?


Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?


Well unfortunately 25 mans can make legendaries faster (hopefully not this time) which in terms got us a wonderful nerf on our legendary staff + for pvp reasons as well.

I also think they want us to use the LFR tool and run the new dungeons so capping on valor in just one raid would be against that (bad).
Considering that I have managed to get one piece of VP gear amongst all my alts, I suppose this doesn't mean too much for me other than finally wholeheartedly giving up on ever keeping current with gear, which I guess also means I can forget about raiding outside raid finder since my ilvl wont get me a trade invite. Thanks blizzard, now us weekend guys can fall back some more and enjoy not doing endgame content even more than we do now.
Agreed. I just feel this whole thing could have been rectified by dropping wrath style tokens for raiders to upgrade the gear they got via frost emblems, and then allowing the heroic tokens to upgrade even further. Let valor buy the tier set, the WHOLE set, then drop tokens from raid bosses (with a little better RNG) to change the stats and color, then do it again with heroic tokens. It would be easily seen how each person acquired their sets. The 5 man runners would be proud of the set they got and the raiders would also know that their set looks and performs better which makes win win for all.
11/17/2011 12:41 PMPosted by Charøn


I think you may be vastly overestimating how well the Raid Finder is going to work when you're making these plans. Right now it mostly seems to be allowing people to wipe on Morchok once or twice before the calls of "U ALL BADS" and the ragequits begin.


I don't think that'll change much when it goes live either. Bringing 25 strangers together with no method of communication, no chemistry, no consequence other than getting raid-kicked.. Yeah, this is a recipe for disaster. I'll try it anyway, and if it's used to fill the last few spots those will be great runs. If it's 25 solo players, it's gonna go REAL bad.


I certainly would hope that it would be difficult or frustrating or impossible to complete 8/8 on day one. Patience is a virtue, no? I guarantee that no amount of frustration or time "wasted" in the LFR will begin to compare to the frustrations of actual raiding. At least this way you still have to have some amount of experience with bosses to get the gear that you're looking for. I also guarantee that no matter how frustrating LFR ends up being initially, after one month, clearing 8/8 in LFR will be easier even with 25 random people than clearing 8/8 on normal mode.
I'm all for this if you make the tier drops all come from the same token. Many, many clears of firelands have netted us about 4 paladin tokens, including heroics. Warrior hunter shaman, week in and week out. It's ridiculous.
As long as I can still cap VP by running LFD 7 times per week, I don't really care, hahaha.
I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?

Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?


Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.
So what about the drop rates in 10 man Dragon Soul? We were told that drop rates would be improve slightly for the better in 10man, since tier is only available via drop now. Yet according to what i've read on the PTR, bosses that drop tier only drop one piece of gear and one tier token. A fairly major nerf and an even better bottle-neck in gearing up. We were told by Zarhym that the drop rates for 10man would be improved for the better due to the tier only being by boss drop tokens, but so far, last I heard, it hasn't changed on the PTR. Any updates on that, Bashiok?
I am just gonna get my 700 points a week and not do 5 man and pray to blizzard that tier gear drops from raid. Guess it will take a little longer to get other pieces, but I will live with it.
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