We want the devs to "get" factions.

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With regards to the latest Developer Watercooler.

Your audience, actually, is not as inattentive as you seem to think it is.

Conflict is necessary for growth? Struggle begets strength? Without great hardship, there can be no great story? You don't say.

These are obvious to anyone who has ever read a book beyond Go Dog, Go! but it's not the point. Nor is counting territories lost, conflicts won, defeats suffered the point. And this is why these threads continue to exist: you either refuse to see or just don't actually get the point.

We recognize that struggle is necessary. We, the Alliance, want the struggle. We want the conflict. We want the fight. We want the hardship.

We aren't getting any of it, though.

And that's the real heart of the issue: the Alliance just aren't getting anything. We aren't getting the story, we aren't getting the quests, we aren't getting the content. I don't care if we technically won Ashenvale because we got a few words of text saying we did, rather than actually getting to experience it. I don't care that we lost Andorhal because we just got a few words of text saying we did. I care that all I'm getting for my questing experience is a few words of text.

The fact that we seem to lose for reasons pulled out only for plot devices is just a sigh. The earnest frustration comes from the fact that we just don't get anything.

Win or lose, our struggle is a footnote. Our conflict is a subplot. Our greatest leaders' primary purpose is to be a quest NPC for the Horde to kill.

This is what you refuse to get. This is why people doubt your ability to write a convincing story. Because, frankly, you're not showing that you actually understand the problem.
I see a lot of words, but not a lot of details. What, exactly, do you want?

Varian to be an active quest giver, out with you hunting Horde?

To have an event every time some major plot point happens, e.g. wrathgate, under city, gnome, etc.?

11/30/2011 11:37 AMPosted by Enekie
I don't care if we technically won Ashenvale because we got a few words of text saying we did, rather than actually getting to experience it. I don't care that we lost Andorhal because we just got a few words of text saying we did. I care that all I'm getting for my questing experience is a few words of text.


Thats odd. having played through both areas on both sides while getting loremaster, it seemed to me that you did actually get to play through it, not just get a few words of text.
I see a lot of words, but not a lot of details. What, exactly, do you want?

Varian to be an active quest giver, out with you hunting Horde?

To have an event every time some major plot point happens, e.g. wrathgate, under city, gnome, etc.?


Using the 2 examples the OP gave...

Ashenvale, Alliance is supposedly winning there.. at least according to a couple lines of text you get before being sent off to collect more bear asses. There is nothing in game to show your actions did anything, instead you get a "We'll take it from here go kill some bears". With all the phasing introduced with Cataclysm you'd think that you would get to see the area changing as you quest thru it.

Andorhol, you fight the good fight, you succeed in your missions.. only to be told "go back to chillwind, we lost". VERY anticlimactic, why aren't we acting as a rear guard to help get out civilians before the Forsaken take over? Why aren't we doing ANYTHING but run away?

As for the leaders... other than a quick appearance in Swamp of Sorrows (for 1 quest) Velen is unheard of, once you leave the Gilneas Genn Greymane does nothing but stand in SW, Tyrande hasn't done anything since WC III. Do you get the picture now? Alliance leaders do absolutely NOTHING the entire expansion... hell, as Alliance you get more face time with Vol'jin than you do any of your own faction leaders (excluding the worgen while in Gilneas).
These are obvious to anyone who has ever read a book beyond Go Dog, Go! but it's not the point. Nor is counting territories lost, conflicts won, defeats suffered the point. And this is why these threads continue to exist: you either refuse to see or just don't actually get the point.

We recognize that struggle is necessary. We, the Alliance, want the struggle. We want the conflict. We want the fight. We want the hardship.


I think you're speaking for yourself here, because dozens of capped threads have been made on the exact points Dave brought up, and you claim no one is concerned with.

I can appreciate if you don't believe those things are important, but many people obviously do, and so they were mentioned in the article. If that's all you took away from what was said though, I'd recommend taking a second read-through.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I don't expect anyone to get super excited over us just saying it's going to get better. We'll have to do the work and make it happen, and I can't really offer you anything other than a request that you take a wait and see approach.
These are obvious to anyone who has ever read a book beyond Go Dog, Go! but it's not the point. Nor is counting territories lost, conflicts won, defeats suffered the point. And this is why these threads continue to exist: you either refuse to see or just don't actually get the point.

We recognize that struggle is necessary. We, the Alliance, want the struggle. We want the conflict. We want the fight. We want the hardship.


I think you're speaking for yourself here, because dozens of capped threads have been made on the exact points Dave brought up, and you claim no one is concerned with.

I can appreciate if you don't believe those things are important, but many people obviously do, and so they were mentioned in the article. If that's all you took away from what was said though, I'd recommend taking a second read-through.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I don't expect anyone to get super excited over us just saying it's going to get better. We'll have to do the work and make it happen, and I can't really offer you anything other than a request that you take a wait and see approach.


Again you're missing the point, it's also hilarious that you use the phrase "Wait and see." considering how much strife that has caused in the Alliance community lately.


It's not that we're loosing the conflict, it's not that the Horde is getting to beat us back that is bothering everyone. It's that we're not doing anything about it at all.

Whole towns destroyed, thousands killed and in game no one in the Alliance seems to care. It's exactly what was brought up in that blog, there is no conflict. There's just the Alliance sitting there.

If we're going to loose we should actually be apart of the loosing, you know involved in it and caring as a faction.

Right now it's just "Oh, we lost that bit and the Horde did this. Well we don't care it's cool." and we as the Alliance players don't get to see any of this great struggle and conflict on our side of the questing block like the Horde.

Likely because of a number of reasons, like the content that was cut from Cata launch.


So no, the OP is not just speaking for themselves. Why do you think that blog post had absolutely zero effect on the communities feelings on the matter?

Fact is people just don't trust Blizzard anymore with the story, and they've been given plenty of reason not too.
Impatient or not, SEVEN YEARS of character development leaning FAR more heavily on the Horde side of the equation gets a bit ridiculous ya know?

I mean as the supposed 'underdogs' the Horde could arguably tend toward more character development... but I get the feeling the Alliance leaders are all cardboard placeholders... It's almost amusingly lopsided.
I'm not even sure how someone can live such a care-free life that "my faction in this video game isn't the favorite child" even makes it on their radar.

I think you're speaking for yourself here, because dozens of capped threads have been made on the exact points Dave brought up, and you claim no one is concerned with.

I can appreciate if you don't believe those things are important, but many people obviously do, and so they were mentioned in the article. If that's all you took away from what was said though, I'd recommend taking a second read-through.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I don't expect anyone to get super excited over us just saying it's going to get better. We'll have to do the work and make it happen, and I can't really offer you anything other than a request that you take a wait and see approach.


He's certainly speaking for me. Guess that makes 2 of us with illegitimate opinions. It's also disingenuous to declare all of those capped threads as score keeping threads. Myself and many others argued that scoring points was not as important as getting a compelling and/or a coherent story.

The vast majority of Fargo's post was about being "fair" and the refusal to be fair because it could damage the story. In fact, in the introduction to the necessity for the post itself:

So when it comes to the game’s ongoing story developments, it’s no surprise that Alliance and Horde fans are “keeping score.” Maps and charts of territory gained and lost started showing up around the time the Cataclysm shook the world to its foundations. Southshore plagued? Taurajo burned? Oh no they didn’t!


The rest of his post follows from this premise. Suffering is the fuel for the story engine. Everyone suffers, life isn't fair, suck it up. The only concession he makes in the entire post is that the story development for Faction Leaders suffered from the in-house concept of "world" characters and needs some improvement.

Absolutely nothing is said about the lack of anything resembling a coherent storyline for the Alliance. His post even bears this out by explaining the overall story-arc for the Horde. I'd challenge him to post the same top level view of the Alliance story-arc because I do not believe it exists. The only meat about the Alliance story?

In the midst of this crisis, the Alliance is going to need to pull together like never before. At the BlizzCon lore panel we promised that key Alliance characters are going to get more time in the spotlight throughout Mists and the subsequent patches, and I wanted to reiterate that here. They’re going to come out of this stronger than ever, but the road ahead won’t be easy.


Stronger than ever? That's not too hard when there's no strength in their current stories.

So we have that promise and these:

Speaking of faction leaders, that’s one area where I think we can do better:

Stick with Thrall as he fulfills his destiny at the end of Cataclysm, and I promise we’ll catch up with other characters -- from both factions -- as we pick up the pieces in the aftermath.


We've heard these promises before. We'll hear them again. I don't believe them. This isn't a "I quit because the Alliance story is bad" post. It's a "I stopped caring, at all, about the current Alliance story because there isn't one" post. A hoodie and a blog post aren't going to erase the history of a weak story combined with denials of favoritism and pleas to stay tuned for story because, we promise, it's coming.
11/30/2011 12:14 PMPosted by Bashiok
We'll have to do the work and make it happen, and I can't really offer you anything other than a request that you take a wait and see approach.


Wait and See is fighting words round these here parts.

And I agree with the OP completly.

We're irritated because we dont really get to experience anything other than the overreaching expansion story.

Our faction is pretty much doing nothing.

Wait and See is fighting words round these here parts.

I challenge bash to a bro down
11/30/2011 12:48 PMPosted by Furiursa
Impatient or not, SEVEN YEARS of character development leaning FAR more heavily on the Horde side of the equation gets a bit ridiculous ya know?


Did you play Wrath of the Lich King?

I understand Cataclysm has been horde heavy in some respects, but let's not rewrite history.
11/30/2011 12:14 PMPosted by Bashiok
Of course, the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I don't expect anyone to get super excited over us just saying it's going to get better. We'll have to do the work and make it happen, and I can't really offer you anything other than a request that you take a wait and see approach.


Can't really take you're word on it with all the things you said you would do and then end up not doing it, or the more recent "we won't ever do this" yet you end up doing it one week later for example nerfing t1 heroics. GC in his blog thingy said it wouldn't be done one week later nerfed, also there is the whole "we won't make class specific legendaries" two weeks later you announce rogue only legendary daggers. Not really bitter about it, but when you blues say trust us it's kind of hard to after all of this.
Did you play Wrath of the Lich King?

I understand Cataclysm has been horde heavy in some respects, but let's not rewrite history.


WotLK wasnt as nearly as Alliance heavy as people say it was, it was probably the most neutral expansion to date.

And its clearly wasnt Alliance heavy enough to balance Cata.

Tirion hadnt been "Alliance" for a long time before WotLK

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