We want the devs to "get" factions.

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I think you're speaking for yourself here, because dozens of capped threads have been made on the exact points Dave brought up, and you claim no one is concerned with.

I can appreciate if you don't believe those things are important, but many people obviously do, and so they were mentioned in the article. If that's all you took away from what was said though, I'd recommend taking a second read-through.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I don't expect anyone to get super excited over us just saying it's going to get better. We'll have to do the work and make it happen, and I can't really offer you anything other than a request that you take a wait and see approach.


Why were none of the issues he raised even brought up? Instead of at least saying yeah we know we have been lacking on alliance dynamic questing or we feel things are fine or even get over it, we do what we do; we get a complete diversion from the topic he is raising.
And oddly enough, Bashiok, you missed the point still.

I know people who HAVE left the game over this issue, feeling that Alliance is not given the enthusiasm, attention, and love we constantly see for the horde.

Again, I ask: Who is the public face of the Alliance for Blizzard? We see tons of pro-Horde stuff at Blizzcon, and lots of anti-Alliance Blizzard rhetoric and jokes, but who at Blizzard has an in-game avatar akin to Metzen's Thrall?

As others have said, Alliance gets more face-time with Vol Jin and Thrall than we do with all of the Alliance leaders combined. Why is this?

We've had plenty of promises before. Why should we believe you now?
It's not about fairness. It's not about winning or losing. It's about lack of agency and marginalization.
11/30/2011 12:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
Impatient or not, SEVEN YEARS of character development leaning FAR more heavily on the Horde side of the equation gets a bit ridiculous ya know?


Did you play Wrath of the Lich King?

I understand Cataclysm has been horde heavy in some respects, but let's not rewrite history.


alliance of lordaeron != todays alliance

Development wise, i'd say equal in wrath, Horde could watch thrall, garrosh, and other characters had some character development as did varian, jaina, 3 dorfs, and other characters were for the alliance. I mean both sides did stuff that both sides got to see.

Tirion and Darion have never been apart of the alliance known today.
Did you play Wrath of the Lich King?I understand Cataclysm has been horde heavy in some respects, but let's not rewrite history.


And still you miss the point.

It is NOT about Thrall. Period. Nada.

That's not what most of us are talking about -- and yes, I've read all 2700+ messages in the Fargo thread.

You and Fargo COMPLETELY MISS our point.

EDIT: I've been playing since Warcraft 1, and Wow since a few months before BC was released.
11/30/2011 12:28 PMPosted by Grenaday
What else do you want them to say other than wait and see?

I guess it would be helpful if they'd acknowledge that "wait and see" is all they've been giving us, and to acknowledge that the lack of follow-thru is what has led us to not trust them when they say "wait and see".

We've waited and we've seen that we're continuing to be the Horde's punching bag.

He is right, though. The proof is in the pudding. At the moment, the pudding seems to be full of Horde goodness. For the Alliance, not so much.

But of course Bash hasn't acknowledged that, and that's why we keep making these threads.
Slightly off topic:

Worgen story vs Goblin story.

I played a Goblin alt to see their starting zone etc. At the end I get kicked out into Azshara.

I rolled a Worgen Druid to participate in the Worgen zones. At the end I get kicked out in Darkshore - to do all the same questing a NE and Dranny do as well.

It is blatantly obvious to me that the devs enjoyed writing for the Goblins a lot more than the Worgen.

It's okay, I guess I can run through Darkshore again. But it sure was exciting to see that the Goblin storyline was continuing in Azshara.

Worgen story vs Forsaken story:

We learn more about what happened to the Worgen by playing an Undead then we do playing a Worgen.
There are few people out there as pro Alliance as me. Few people were as amazingly pissed with how the Alliance was treated at Blizzcon. I'm hella pissed at how poorly done the Alliance questing was during Cata.

I'm also quick to anger, impatient, and a pessimist by nature. But even I've come to accept that nothing more can be done at this point. Countless topics have been made, many of them have been capped. We got el presidente himself to apologize for the **** that went down at Blizzcon and got this recent watercooler among other things.

They know we're pissed. We've made that clear and they've acknowledged it and have said they will fix it. At this point there is nothing more we can do besides wait and see. Continuing to make topics complaining isn't going to help at this point. We'll have to be patient and hope that they actually do give a damn and will do something.

Personally I don't think they'll succeed. I've lost my confidence in the WoW crew (not Blizz as a whole since I love Diablo and Starcraft), but I guess I have to hold out hope.
With regards to the latest Developer Watercooler.

Your audience, actually, is not as inattentive as you seem to think it is.

Conflict is necessary for growth? Struggle begets strength? Without great hardship, there can be no great story? You don't say.

These are obvious to anyone who has ever read a book beyond Go Dog, Go! but it's not the point. Nor is counting territories lost, conflicts won, defeats suffered the point. And this is why these threads continue to exist: you either refuse to see or just don't actually get the point.

We recognize that struggle is necessary. We, the Alliance, want the struggle. We want the conflict. We want the fight. We want the hardship.

We aren't getting any of it, though.

And that's the real heart of the issue: the Alliance just aren't getting anything. We aren't getting the story, we aren't getting the quests, we aren't getting the content. I don't care if we technically won Ashenvale because we got a few words of text saying we did, rather than actually getting to experience it. I don't care that we lost Andorhal because we just got a few words of text saying we did. I care that all I'm getting for my questing experience is a few words of text.

The fact that we seem to lose for reasons pulled out only for plot devices is just a sigh. The earnest frustration comes from the fact that we just don't get anything.

Win or lose, our struggle is a footnote. Our conflict is a subplot. Our greatest leaders' primary purpose is to be a quest NPC for the Horde to kill.

This is what you refuse to get. This is why people doubt your ability to write a convincing story. Because, frankly, you're not showing that you actually understand the problem.


Enekie, representin' Wyrmrest Accord. +20 awesome points.
LOL are you guys actually trying to argue that Wrath wasn't an Alliance centered expansion?

It is outright DENIAL if you actually believe that the Alliance and Horde story for Wrath was even CLOSE to even. It wasn't even AT ALL. The Alliance had so much more small and large scale character and racial development during that expansion than the Horde has gotten for the entirety of the game including most of Cataclysm. I guess learning the origins of Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, backstory on most figures in the game, declaring war on the Horde, having YOUR heroes be on top of the citadel for the ending cinematic as well as all the interpersonal relationships that added flavor to Arthas' rise and fall just wasn't enough story for you.

I guess none of you whiners will be happy until Thrall is lynched and dead, Sylvanas is decapitated and hung up for display in Stormwind but guess what? This has been an Alliance centered universe for far too long, and the devs did a good job of making the world and zones even for the Horde in this expansion.
I think the OP has seriously missed a point.

I recommend everyone read this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faction

With an eye towards further information from “political faction”.

Blizz uses “faction” as a means to engender conflict to justify the war focused on in Warcraft. There are two sides and neither likes the other. They conflict and thus we have our war.

Conflict requires that there be disagreement/disapproval between the two groups, otherwise what’s to fight about? If your view is that the Alliance is somehow getting a “short end of the stick”, perhaps that’s to the good, because it foments the abovementioned disagreement/disapproval that contributes to the clonflict that provides the war.

I would say, “Working as intended.”

Good job, Blizz.

With regards to the latest Developer Watercooler.

Your audience, actually, is not as inattentive as you seem to think it is.

Conflict is necessary for growth? Struggle begets strength? Without great hardship, there can be no great story? You don't say.

These are obvious to anyone who has ever read a book beyond Go Dog, Go! but it's not the point. Nor is counting territories lost, conflicts won, defeats suffered the point. And this is why these threads continue to exist: you either refuse to see or just don't actually get the point.

We recognize that struggle is necessary. We, the Alliance, want the struggle. We want the conflict. We want the fight. We want the hardship.

We aren't getting any of it, though.

And that's the real heart of the issue: the Alliance just aren't getting anything. We aren't getting the story, we aren't getting the quests, we aren't getting the content. I don't care if we technically won Ashenvale because we got a few words of text saying we did, rather than actually getting to experience it. I don't care that we lost Andorhal because we just got a few words of text saying we did. I care that all I'm getting for my questing experience is a few words of text.

The fact that we seem to lose for reasons pulled out only for plot devices is just a sigh. The earnest frustration comes from the fact that we just don't get anything.

Win or lose, our struggle is a footnote. Our conflict is a subplot. Our greatest leaders' primary purpose is to be a quest NPC for the Horde to kill.

This is what you refuse to get. This is why people doubt your ability to write a convincing story. Because, frankly, you're not showing that you actually understand the problem.


While we're on the subject of books, it's clear to me that you have never in your life ever written one. Writing a story is not as simple as going "hurr durr gonna throw this in for no reason." You have to adequately space out the action and the drama so that they flow seamlessly. How else do you think the Harry Potter series managed to last 7 books? Because the author took her time and mapped out how each action (or scene, if you will) would fit into the story.

So just because the Alliance are practically getting kicked while they're down NOW (as of Cataclysm Patch 4.3), does not mean that Blizzard has abandoned the Alliance entirely. They most likely have the story already written, but we are not seeing it. My advice: BE PATIENT. Good things come to those who wait.
11/30/2011 01:12 PMPosted by Lunareste
I guess learning the origins of Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, backstory on most figures in the game


Think maybe thats because we already know the origins of most of the Horde races?

11/30/2011 01:12 PMPosted by Lunareste
declaring war on the Horde


Both sides declared war, it wasnt a one sided effort.

11/30/2011 01:12 PMPosted by Lunareste
having YOUR heroes be on top of the citadel for the ending cinematic as well


Tirion hadnt been Alliance since before warcraft 3, Bolvar suffered both fates of Alliance heroes, he died AND went neutral.

11/30/2011 01:12 PMPosted by Lunareste
interpersonal relationships that added flavor to Arthas' rise and fall just wasn't enough story for you.
Last I checked both sides could do those quests. And Arthas had relationships with horde characters too (Sylvanas)

WotLK wasnt nearly as slanted as Cata is.
11/30/2011 12:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
Impatient or not, SEVEN YEARS of character development leaning FAR more heavily on the Horde side of the equation gets a bit ridiculous ya know?


Did you play Wrath of the Lich King?

I understand Cataclysm has been horde heavy in some respects, but let's not rewrite history.


I did. The Horde got to se the evolution the plauge quest chain that had been building since level 5. They got to make multiple strikes against the Alliance across three zones. The Blood Elves rexerted their influence in the Kirin Tor, which had been waning since the defection of Kael'Thas from the Six. They fought pitched skirmishes against the scourge and inducted the Taunka into the Horde in a blood rite. They completed the Vengeance of the Forsaken against the Lich King who destroyed their lives. The Blood Elves saw the Veangeance against the Scourge who carved a bloody swath into their homeland and destroyed their culture. The Horde saw the blade that was shattered in the Blood Elf defense of the Sunwell, and the Blood Elf assault on Icecrown, reforged anew.

What did the Alliance have in Cataclysm that approached any of those things? A wacky ride with a crazy dwarf?
Lets face it, the alliance is just not that interesting.
So just because the Alliance are practically getting kicked while they're down NOW (as of Cataclysm Patch 4.3), does not mean that Blizzard has abandoned the Alliance entirely. They most likely have the story already written, but we are not seeing it. My advice: BE PATIENT. Good things come to those who wait.


There is a difference in being kicked while you are down while trying to get up or cover your !@# or laying their acknowledging you are being kicked, and being a mannequin that is kicked down. Right now the alliance is nothing more then a story Mannequin.
I will have to agree with OP. His point is from what I can take is horde quests plot/story is told better and shown better in WoW than alliance. I have both horde toons and alliance horde questing is by a landslide better in every aspect. You are more involved in horde quests and you see results of your quest, where alliance quests tbh are just boring and plain.

11/30/2011 12:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
Impatient or not, SEVEN YEARS of character development leaning FAR more heavily on the Horde side of the equation gets a bit ridiculous ya know?


Did you play Wrath of the Lich King?

I understand Cataclysm has been horde heavy in some respects, but let's not rewrite history.

Or Vanilla. Vanilla was 100% alliance and horde was more or less an afterthought.
These are obvious to anyone who has ever read a book beyond Go Dog, Go! but it's not the point. Nor is counting territories lost, conflicts won, defeats suffered the point. And this is why these threads continue to exist: you either refuse to see or just don't actually get the point.

We recognize that struggle is necessary. We, the Alliance, want the struggle. We want the conflict. We want the fight. We want the hardship.


I think you're speaking for yourself here, because dozens of capped threads have been made on the exact points Dave brought up, and you claim no one is concerned with.

I can appreciate if you don't believe those things are important, but many people obviously do, and so they were mentioned in the article. If that's all you took away from what was said though, I'd recommend taking a second read-through.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I don't expect anyone to get super excited over us just saying it's going to get better. We'll have to do the work and make it happen, and I can't really offer you anything other than a request that you take a wait and see approach.



With this expansion coming to a close, the only thing to do now is wait and see what the future holds for both factions. I think they already know how people feel about the alliance in this regard, and I believe they will not let us down in MoP.
Naturally there will be no other post addressing what this thread is about, instead a Blue pops into this thread, cherry picks a quote, relates the quote to something the post isn't about, then disappears.

Is this not the very definition of trolling?

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