Retribution (7.0.3) - Updated 8/4/16

Paladin
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Again, posting while half asleep. Scanned through the last couple pages since my last post and haven't been able to find the answer I'm looking for. I've still got all of my T12 heroic gear (except for my gloves since Baleroc refused to drop conq tokens so I'm still rocking 378 T12 there) and was trying to find the rough numbers on the T13 2/4 set bonuses. I'm noticing using the 2 set at least is still a nice dps increase, even with those being from LFR. Would it be worth polishing off the 4 set with LFR pieces if we can't get the tokens for the 397s in the normal raid or is that looking like too much of a dps loss from pure stats?
I ask because I'm noticing a lot of these fights are based around whether or not we can burst in the limited time we have on the target (Yor'sahj, Hagara, Tendons to give examples or Morchok if you wanna talk heroics).

Side Note: Haste might be superior to crit due to two bis items proccing from melee attacks. Faster swings equal more Gur'thalak procs and Bone Link Fetish procs. Haven't done proper math, but numbers in raid don't lie.

Sorry if I don't seem to be making much sense, again, not fully awake at the time of this post. I'll probably revise it when I wake up fully.
I simmed you with and without the 4-piece T13 from LFR over your tier, though I didn't bother changing the reforging. Either way, it was a DPS increase (albeit somewhat slight.) The extra 18% damage on top of AW is a bigger deal than it seems.

12/28/2011 03:58 AMPosted by Sevilon
Side Note: Haste might be superior to crit due to two bis items proccing from melee attacks. Faster swings equal more Gur'thalak procs and Bone Link Fetish procs. Haven't done proper math, but numbers in raid don't lie.

I'd keep an eye on EJ with a theory like that, maybe bring it up yourself. I wouldn't count on it moving far enough ahead to make a huge difference in our gearing strategies though, since I'm fairly certain it'd take a more significant amount of Haste than we can afford to put into our gear to make a very noticeable difference in the use of those two items. This is just top-of-the-head reasoning, however, and it is 4:46 in the morning, so! Please let us know what you find if you decide to dig into it.
as you could tell from my gear, ive been toying around with reforging to haste over crit. gave haste a 1.49 weight and crit a .49 rate for wowreforge. its, so far, appearing to be a more steady dps increase (surprise there) and less prone to rng (another surprise). with wrath of air totem or similar buffs, it throws my haste with judgements of the pure up to about 24% haste. doesnt seem like a lot, considering thats what we're use to seeing after reforging out of every bit of haste we could the last two tiers. problem is now, though, theres not much haste on our gear now that it stands to possibly be a better stat than crit. if there is haste on our gear, chances are we're having to reforge it to hit or expertise sadly. or at least thats what ive been running into. another thing worth noting though, with eye of unmaking and fights that require some downtime from a target, haste will stack eye of unmaking faster if it happens to fall off. pretty sure with judge it shouldnt, but something worth noting. all in all, im more pleased going haste over crit, cant really argue 40.7k dps(e) by worldoflogs.com on ultraxion with it being a little over 5 minute fight with my gear.
12/30/2011 04:29 AMPosted by Sevilon
problem is now, though, theres not much haste on our gear now that it stands to possibly be a better stat than crit.

Well, our stats do scale dynamically with one another. If we decided to reforge full-on Haste, Crit would probably jump in value rather significantly all the same. Just like with the Mastery to Crit issue in late T12 gear, it doesn't seem worth it to me to try to find a balance, considering any amount of one stat or the other will likely cause the other to move up in significance.

It's my opinion that it's based on preference whether you reforge for few extra secondaries you have into Crit or Haste; the difference will never be huge since we have to spend most of what we have on Mastery and Hit/Expertise caps. I just don't feel the need to try and balance scales based on two items. I re-scale my own toon every time I get a significant upgrade, so if it ever spits out Haste > Crit for me, I'll gladly look more deeply into it. However, considering that T13N and T13H BiS sets both simmed consistently that Crit > Haste to a noticeable extent, I don't really see that being the issue.

12/30/2011 04:29 AMPosted by Sevilon
cant really argue 40.7k dps(e) by worldoflogs.com on ultraxion with it being a little over 5 minute fight with my gear.

I don't know, how are your parses reforged to Crit? There can't truly be that big of a difference, especially on Ultraxion. Regardless, I'd like you to keep me updated if you can.
Quick question. I am torn on which weapon is better, for I am seeing different results. Which is better the heroic 2 hand Axe from Yor http://www.wowhead.com/item=78403 or the 2 hand 403 version off madness http://www.wowhead.com/item=77191 ?
Most agree that the 403 tentacle sword from Madness of Deathwing is superior to the heroics version of the weapons from both Yor'sahj and Warmaster Blackhorn.
Tentacle sword no longer procs from Seals of Command (SoT). As far as what I've read, it's up in the air as to whether Gurthalak is officially "dead," or if it's still BiS, just to a somewhat lesser extent.
If you could update this thread with any findings on Gurthalaks proc nerf that would be appreciated. It seems I may have to go back to my firelands weapon. I saw so few procs tonight that I can't even begin to believe its still worth using.

But any data/theories/hunches you can share will help my decision either way.

Darth
I'm now able to pull slightly more dps with Experimental Specimen Slicer (397) as opposed to Gurth (390). Perhaps the 403 version of Gurth will be better but for now I've put old Gurthy in my bag.

Blue post:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3811455871?page=8#145
Ok I've noticed from reading we've established that even LFR T13 4pc outweighs T12H 4pc but I was curious, My main spec is prot right now but I'm still dpsing some fights in heroic modes as we only need 1 tank, but since its my OS im still sitting in t12N gear.

Since i have limited acces to OS conq tokens, I was curious if dual 2pc t12/t13 (even if using LFR) outweighs T12 4pc because of the extra HoPo from judge?

Until I can get T13 4pc I was wondering how much of a dps loss/gain this might be to min/max dps in some of these H DS fights where some guilds wipe at the smallest percentages or even hitting enrage in some occasions.
going from 378s to 384s will give you additional strength, so itll be worth it regardless.

point im on this thread again right now though, after a bit of testing on a dummy, it appears they either reverted the nerf or made it so hand of light is proccing it instead. my combat log has shown it after melee hit, after a seal of truth hit, after a seals of command hit, but not immediately after hand of light. whether thats from lag or not, its a possible theory.

also, svayne, hop on game when you can. if not, hop in my vent

another edit: going off the proc rate in a random, im guessing my combat log lagged somehow. absolutely nothing for procs on gurth in well of eternity.
Note: Yes, it's me. Svayne has just moved realms, so I'm unable to post with him at the moment.

Word on EJ is that the order of weapon value remains the same:
NM DS Weapons < LFR Gurth < Heroic Sulfuras < HM DS Weapons < NM Gurth < HM Gurth

"Normal Gur remains ahead of Heroic Scalpel or Cudgel by about 500 DPS." (Exemplar) Weapon ranks assume 8-9 ticks of Mind Flay per proc. Tests yield a proc chance of roughly 2% on average.
Someday, I too shall know the sweet, sweet taste of the tentacle sword. Also confirming the above post now that my realm transfer is complete. Gurthalak is not "dead."
01/07/2012 01:54 AMPosted by Sevilon
going from 378s to 384s will give you additional strength, so itll be worth it regardless.

The miniscule str upgrade rly beats +15s on Zealotry? Doesn't seem right to me with all the extra TVs that you can pump out. Or am I underestimating how much additional str you get with extra sockets, etc?
between the strength from the gems, plus the additional holy power from the two set, it out weighs the 4 set from t12. theres math on it, sims prove it, and personal experience can varify, its better. i went from heroic t12 4 to lfr t13 2. still saw a dps increase. its worth it.
i know, double post, omg. couple people are posting questions that have been answered in this thread, so moving it back to front page to help answer questions if people actually look :)
Pretty good guide, couple quick notes for you. Most high end rets have dropped repentance at this point as it is of comical value at best for raiding content. Many have chosen to put it in to divinity in the prot tree. 2% passive healing done and healing taken has more value than an ability that is literally never used. I understand it has value outside of raiding but this thread is specifically raiding as ret.

Your section regarding weapon speed says seals and judgement are not normalized. I assume you mean seals and TV are the non-normalized attacks, judgement is not weapon damage based.

With the change/fix to the way Gurthalak procs weapon rankings simply follow ilvl now for ret. lfr gurth > normal ds weapons > normal gurth > heroic ds wepaons >heroic gurth.
01/19/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Pbad
Most high end rets have dropped repentance at this point as it is of comical value at best for raiding content. Many have chosen to put it in to divinity in the prot tree. 2% passive healing done and healing taken has more value than an ability that is literally never used. I understand it has value outside of raiding but this thread is specifically raiding as ret.


Interesting. I had thought of this but the math lead me away because 2% is really nothing unless I'm not looking at it right. For instance, with this talent if I get healed for 100K normally I'd get an additional 2k healing, which for raiding isn't even going to make a difference.

Now I suppose 1k here and there can add up but I use Repentence a lot for trash in raids over the past few tiers. I wonder though...
I received the Gurth the other day, I was just wondering if that or the 397 PvP weapon is better?

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