LFR loot rules are totally broken

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There is definitely much to be worked on with the LFR system, and I almost feel as if it shouldn't have been released until said things were fixed internally, even if it meant delaying LFR till Mists of Pandaria.

Currently, due to the mechanics of LFR, we queue with anywhere between 6-10 people and need on whatever we can, and move the loot to whom we think should get it afterwards. Since Blizzards mechanics themselves allow this, there is no abuse happening with the current system, no matter how unfair it may or may not be. I will admit that we did not start doing this until we ourselves had encountered it multiple times. If other people aren't going to play fair (even if "not playing fair" is okay by Blizzards current system) then we aren't either.

It's also quite easy for competent players to away with this, because if even one of your members gets booted the rest of you will leave. This explanation itself has stopped people from raging multiple times over. Trust me, knowing your top 2-5 dps (by a wide, WIDE margin), top 2 heals, and the most geared tank in the group will all leave the second someone gets removed stops people dead in their tracks.

I would rather NOT have to play this way, but it seems to be the only way to play, because the second you don't, someone else will.
my biggest gripe with LFR loot is all too often it rewards platers with exceptionally low dps or healing done.

if a dps is mostly afk during the fight, simply autoattacking and being healed through "mistakes" or if a healer spends most of their time dpsing and is far below healing done compared to the other healers and they both need gear...

why does player that's maximizing their contribution/activity... deserve gear just as much as an alt-tabbed raider?
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


Start punishing ninjas? Something has to happen. I was originally excited for LFR but now I don't even want to be a part of it. Every single person hitting need? I want no part of it, it's unacceptable. I'm desperate to find reasons to play this game, punishing people who deserve it would go a long way to fix most of the problems with this game.


Response to bolded part here: It isn't ninja'ing. Blizzards current system allows it, and nothing will be removed from people just because the item is less optimal for them than it is for you. The system is a horrible mess. See my previous post for my feelings on it.
I find it amazing that once I replaced an agility ring with a strength ring, my DPS went up!
How about a ret paladin rolling need+bonus on an int/spirit neck?
I'm not entirely sure it's working as it's intended either :\

Me and a few friends queued for the Fall of Deathwing and came across a group that had quite a few members from the same guild. I was tanking as was a random person the LFR tool put in. The guild proceeded to win the majority of items, regardless of who needed what. An example of this is the raid leader, who was a Moonkin, proceeded to win the majority of items regardless of who in the raid needed it:

- Indomitable Pride, rolled on by both tanks (a warrior and a druid) - won by the Moonkin
- Two strength trinkets dropped from the Spine of Deathwing, won by the Moonkin and a Rogue
- Every weapon from the Madness of Deathwing was won by the guild as well, including the Polearm I'm wearing which also went to the moonkin (the proc is amazing by the way).

The way I interpreted the altered version of need before greed was that the roll bonus is given to players who are specifically in the role they're performing: for example the tank trinket above would have a roll bonus for tanks that roll for it. With what Zarhym said, it explains why a rogue and a moonkin would win the strength trinkets (given it isn't determined by spec) but not the loss of agility leather/weapons to moonkins and trinkets that are clearly intended for tanks. :$
Zarhym:

Maybe I'm confused, but the system is already set up so that I (as a death knight) can't roll on plate gear with Intellect. What's preventing the extension of that system so that I can't roll on gear with Agility, either?


This. God, this. Most of the problems with LFR loot aren't because of the Need+ system bolted on, it's with the core (broken) NBG loot system that Need+ is bolted to.

No the core problem is that people are D-bags, and that's something you just can not patch or hotfix.

It's sad that Blizzard needs to solve this issue because peoples attitudes are "lulz if i can hit need imma hit need" if people would just show some maturity there'd be no need for a fix.
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


I wish this was comforting but people have been talking about the issue since at least Wrath. I've always been able to roll Need for Strength and Tank items on my hunter, good thing I'm not a jerk or I could have been abusing this for ages. And it would be one thing if this was just a H Pally rolling on DPS gear or something, but this is classes being able to roll on things that they have no business using whatsoever. I understand that programming is not an easy thing, especially with such a massive game, but I would be a lot happier if I knew it was just a programming problem rather than it seeming like you guys are just working on this now : /.
my biggest gripe with LFR loot is all too often it rewards platers with exceptionally low dps or healing done.

if a dps is mostly afk during the fight, simply autoattacking and being healed through "mistakes" or if a healer spends most of their time dpsing and is far below healing done compared to the other healers and they both need gear...

why does player that's maximizing their contribution/activity... deserve gear just as much as an alt-tabbed raider?


If they are attacking/throwing heals out- no matter how minimal- it is still considered participating (kind of how it works in BG's also). As far as healers dpsing go, I have a mechanic that requires me to cast lightning bolts to get mana back, disc priests have the smite heals mechanic, and pallies a judgement (I forget what druids have). Unfortunately with the amount of raid damage that goes out, I have to use TC to get mana back when mana tide totem is on cooldown. Trust me- I'm not dpsing because I want to. You need to remember- just like LFG- you are the one taking the risks of playing with players that don't meet your standards. You didn't put the raid together- the system did., so you basically have no say so in how loot goes out.

This is why I don't like this whole "buddy system" stuff that is going on- I've seen guilds need on everything they could so people couldn't get an upgrade- if they weren't able to pull this stuff, it wouldn't be an issue. But it's attitudes like the above poster and rather greedy, greedy people that encourages a lot of the behavior going on in LFR (and LFG).
I've seen DPS Warriors with Vishanka due to getting a +need bonus on it. It made me quite sad...

There NEEDS to be slightly more strict rules in place and also fixing the issue of 1 person winning doubles. Coding it where if you win one, you can't get the other and also at least preventing Agility rolls by Warriors/Death Knights/Paladins and preventing Strength rolls by Agility classes would go a long way.

Btw, for the love of god. please flag Vishanka as Hunter only.
I thought the LFD system already recognized Agility, Intellect, and Strength users (such items are GREYED OUT you can't even roll Need)

Why doesn't the LFR's +100 system do the same already?
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.

I'm sorry, but were hunters able to need roll on strength items in LK? I vaguely remember a looting system eons better than the current, which leads me to question why the game can not tell between something with agility and something with strength like it apparently used to. Maybe I am missing something?
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.



We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.


I find it very hard to believe that the people overseeing the LFR project didn't have the foresight to know that these would be serious issues before it went live.


Or they knew they were issues, but the tech currently doesn't support it. They probably didn't want to put off the LFR, they got it out with 4.3 so people can enjoy it, and then like Zhar said, they're working to fix the roll issues.

You act like its a simple fix...

Yes, there are roll issues, but overall for many people its very enjoyable.

Can you look into giving DPS a roll bonus on souldrinkers as well. They are the only 1h str dps weapon in LFR dragon soul and are pretty amazing for dw dps.
12/08/2011 05:25 PMPosted by Treespring
One thing I'd love to see addressed is for example on madness, if 2x the same weapon drops, it would be nice if there was a way that both drops didn't go to the same person.
do this for tokens too
The way I interpreted the altered version of need before greed was that the roll bonus is given to players who are specifically in the role they're performing: for example the tank trinket above would have a roll bonus for tanks that roll for it. With what Zarhym said, it explains why a rogue and a moonkin would win the strength trinkets (given it isn't determined by spec) but not the loss of agility leather/weapons to moonkins and trinkets that are clearly intended for tanks. :$


It's because feral can DPS as well as tank, and they use agility. Ergo, druids are flagged for agility because of feral, items are flagged as DPS because they have agility, and because Need+ is fundamentally flawed a Boomkin can win agility items, because he's role flagged as DPS and he's gear flagged for agility. There are a whole mess of little technical things like that that kind of suck (bear tanks probably can't Need+ on agi trinkets, even though agi is their single best stat to stack) that need to be addressed case-by-case.

Now the fact that a DPS (ANY) DPS gets a roll bonus on a Stam trinket is a slightly different (and baffling) can of worms.

I still say disabling Need (not just Need+, but Need as a whole) for Druids/Hunters rolling on Strength and also disabling it for DK/Pal/War rolling on Agility is a step in the right direction, but there's still a lot of fine tuning after that.

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