I will never go back to normal raiding again.

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I'm surprised more of these raider guys aren't seeing the bigger picture here.
Especially considering how it works in your favor bigtime over the long run.

1. Your "pool" of potential raiders just exploded AND you don't even have to train these guys cause they can get geared up to raid at the same time they are learning the basics of the fights.

2. The fight over where development dollars are spent has tilted greatly in your favor now, simply put, a lot more people are gonna be hounding blizz for alot more raid content. casual players win by having more "training" raids to run and you win as well because you get the normal and heroic modes of these raids.

3. (this one ties in with #1) Guild leaders will be able to seperate the wheat from the chaff very,very quickly now. No more bringing in low geared toons with no idea how the raids work,then gearing them up only to have them not be up to snuff or just decide they don't care for raiding. With the new system people can gear and learn on thier own and you can simple have the stipulation of...
"No new members are permitted to raid with the main group until they have completed the training raids (RRF) and have geared themselves from said raids accordingly.

That may sound harsh to some but actually with the new system in place it's quite fair.

If anything you raider guys should be cheering the masses on,sure there will be some players that never quite get their act together,but it's gonna be a lot easier to find those diamonds in the rough who do.
I agree that I would love to see a larger ICC type raid again .. that being said for all the people who would love to raid but work shift work or have multiple family commitments the lfr is a amazing tool . While I am in a casual progression raiding guild and have gotten to see end content for all of cata the increased difficulty has made pugs scarce and given my husband who frequently works multiple nights a week little chance to see end content this expac. Given that he has been playing for yrs, I think the lfr is a great addition to the game and only fair considering that whether your hardcore or casual we all pay to play and for all those who are crabbing you might want to remember that blizzard hasn't taken away reg or heroic modes they are still there for you to master and then brag about in trade :D lfr takes nothing away from you better gear is still yours, the challenge is still yours, and you can still walk about as if hard modes in a online game somehow makes you a superstar :)P
This sounds like a follow up to my old thread:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424688123

I couldn't agree with what you said more OP, and most likely couldn't have said it better myself. I too finally killed DW last night, and killing the big bad of an expansion while it is the current tier is something I never had the chance to do in my 7 years of playing.

OP, thank you for taking the time to express your experience and satisfaction with the LFR tool, as they are sentiments that many, many, many of us obviously agree with and relate to.

and Blizzard, thank you for getting this feature up and running. It certainly is something to be able to look forward to raiding again every week, something I was very sure wasn't going to happen again for me.
As a "real" raider, there's a pressure to do LFR for the extra gear it provides. Unfortunately, this led to me defeating Deathwing in LFR before my guild got there in normal mode. It was very anticlimactic. I felt like I had no influence on the outcome, and the kill was just arbitrarily awarded for being in the same group as some people that knew what to do. So what if I topped the DPS meters? Replace me with an AFK-er and he [Deathwing, not the AFK-er >.>]would have died anyway. It wasn't fun, and I think it will make the real thing less fun as well.

I guess what I would like is to remove the gear incentive for raiders who would be doing this content anyway. I think LFR gear should have been lower item level than Firelands normal mode gear, if only slightly, or make LFR gear share a looting lockout with normal/heroic gear. (Edit: The more I think about it, the more I think a looting lockout with normal/heroic is the best solution. That way it can still serve to gear up alts, which I failed to appreciate as one of its functions before now.)

On the subject of things I did like, the cut-scenes were awesome. I would have seen those either way, but seeing them in LFR did not make them worse. Also, I generally like the Madness of Deathwing weapons. Good to see interesting weapon procs again, it's a pity we see them only rarely! The Skittles boss is great fun, and I like how its trash teaches you how the boss fight will work. I wish more bosses' trash taught their mechanics.
12/08/2011 05:40 AMPosted by Tjordi
And the sarcasm feeds the trolls, accomplishes nothing, and is just unneeded. Carry on, missing the point he was making albeit not using "polite" grammar.


He made no point worth considering. It was all based in "I want X but you shouldn't have it" which is a defective viewpoint to hold.

Having dealt with people of all stripes for my 41 years of life, I no longer believe that opinions are all valid from a certain point of view. Some people are fundamentally wrong, and their opinions are wrong as well. The original poster is one of those people, on this topic. The point they made was mired in sloppy thinking, denial of the desires of others while defending their own similar desires and self righteousness. Nothing worth considering was raised, sadly.

And Zarhym wasn't using sarcasm.
I agree,

Hip Hip Hooray !!!
Great Post. Thank you!

I've only done the LFR once so far, but I absolutely love it. I don't need to specify my reasons for preferring it as you already touched base on my key points.

I only wish they'd OPEN IT UP FOR FIRELANDS so I could work on my Epic Staff :)



On another note, I just started back to WoW after haven quit in BC. What sucked was that I couldn't even do a firelands PUG because everyone asked for a link to my Firelands Achieves. Long story short, I got denied time and time and time again wanting to do some raiding. Well, guess what, that's no longer a problem :) I fully geared myself in Heroics, did a RF last week, and have jumped into some 10man pugs (that fell apart quickly) but w/e. This LFR is going to be a means for me to get my feet wet and maybe dabble in 10/25man PUGs when desired too.

Tossing my hat in with the OP. SO happy I can just see the content, do the fights, and kill the dragons, without having to deal with guild politics, schedules, drama, and all that BS. No more twisting arms and faking achievements to get into pugs that fail anyways. No more /facepalming listening to prima donnas on Vent. I can finally just kick back, relax, fire up some epic music and RAID. This feature is the best thing that's ever happened to raiding, IMO. Keep it up, Blizz, and don't listen to the haters!
I love the Elitist tears :D

"Oh no, someone I'll never ever see in game is doing something easier than me and getting worse rewards than me! SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!"

Seriously, LFR loot is almost an entire raiding tier lower than normal mode, heck it's barely better than Firelands gear.
As a "real" raider, there's a pressure to do LFR for the extra gear it provides. Unfortunately, this led to me defeating Deathwing in LFR before my guild got there in normal mode. It was very anticlimactic. I felt like I had no influence on the outcome, and the kill was just arbitrarily awarded for being in the same group as some people that knew what to do. So what if I topped the DPS meters? Replace me with an AFK-er and he [Deathwing, not the AFK-er >.>]would have died anyway. It wasn't fun, and I think it will make the real thing less fun as well.

I guess what I would like is to remove the gear incentive for raiders who would be doing this content anyway. I think LFR gear should have been lower item level than Firelands normal mode gear, if only slightly, or make LFR gear share a looting lockout with normal/heroic gear.


I agree completely.
12/07/2011 05:03 PMPosted by Terrick
I have to agree, 4.3 is hands down the best thing to happen to WoW since Cata hit. I give the Dev's an A+ for this patch. (I won't spoil the post with what I would have graded Cata before this patch).


More like best thing since WotLK hit. Cata, on the whole, was a complete disaster. 4.3 is its one shining moment. I don't think it's enough to redeem the entire expansion, but it does give us a glimpse into what's in store for MoP. It's a step in the right direction for sure.

*coughs* Still greatly disappointed about the level 60 pvp gear fiasco though. If not for that I'd say the patch would be perfect.
12/08/2011 05:49 AMPosted by Ratheon
I'm surprised more of these raider guys aren't seeing the bigger picture here.


It's all about change.

It frightens people. They were used to a certain way of doing things, and now that's changed.

Macchiavelli said it very well:

There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. For the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their adversaries … and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who do not truly believe in anything new until they have had actual experience of it.


(he really was a very smart man, worth reading The Prince just for quotes like that)

I think the defenders of the new order are stronger than lukewarm though!
To me, that patch is the best one so far. Very smooth implementation, all features are awesome but there is one thing truly missing to make 4.3 perfect....

Ferris Wheel for the faire !!!!!!
I didnt know how it would pan out... but tried LFR yesterday and I


LOVED IT!!!!


I quit raiding because my life changed-I couldnt commit to a schedule... I hated either waiting for so and so to come back from a smoke break or feeding their baby. I couldnt STAND being ready and standing there while my buffs wore off. More time was standing around than actually killing stuff. (some groups this isnt the case--but with most groups it is)

Yeah, some fights were maybe a bit too watered down-but thats a okay with me. I didnt have to beat my head on the desk when we wiped for the 9th time at 2 in the morning on a boss.

I agree with a previous post to the 'hardcore' raiders. Your pool of potential playmates has risen. They are learning the fights right now.......
12/07/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care. :)


Honestly, I didn't see too much vitriol or bad language in that post. You might see it as elitist, but that attitude is what drove this game for much of its history. To turn around and condemn it is just confusing to some.

That being said, I do agree with his notion that waiting to open up LFR should have been considered. Deathwing is supposed to be the ultimate boss of the expansion. Seeing people pug it in the first week seems wrong on some level.

Another reason I dislike LFR is that it borders on being anti-guild in an expansion that was supposed to revitalize and reinforce guilds, or at least that is what was said early in its development. LFR takes the need for a guild out of raiding which is what Blues have said was one of the primary reasons for having guilds: to have the resources to achieve larger accomplishments as a whole than what one could achieve on their own. LFR runs directly counter to that line of reasoning.

Guilds are treating LFR like they treated ToC 10mans in WotLK: a place to force your players to go in order to gear up faster for real raiding. I think LFR should share a lockout with the other difficulties to avoid LFR being turned into a loot pinata for guilds. If having 4 lock outs in ToC was bad for the game I fail to see how LFR having a separate lock out from normal/heroic raids is not also bad for the game.

I see no problem with having LFR. I merely think its current implementation is bad for the game. Tweaks could make it a worthwhile tool, but it shouldn't turn something like Deathwing into what feels like a 5man boss the same week his raid tier comes out.
I agree with this post, so much. I dropped the big bad, while he was still both big and bad. I have no title for it, no mount from it, no uber-gear to speak of.I also don't care.Because, at the end of the day, I killed him. And really, that's all I wanted.



^ This X 100.


^ This X 100 more.
12/08/2011 05:51 AMPosted by Grixxle
And the sarcasm feeds the trolls, accomplishes nothing, and is just unneeded. Carry on, missing the point he was making albeit not using "polite" grammar.


He made no point worth considering. It was all based in "I want X but you shouldn't have it" which is a defective viewpoint to hold.

Having dealt with people of all stripes for my 41 years of life, I no longer believe that opinions are all valid from a certain point of view. Some people are fundamentally wrong, and their opinions are wrong as well. The original poster is one of those people, on this topic. The point they made was mired in sloppy thinking, denial of the desires of others while defending their own similar desires and self righteousness. Nothing worth considering was raised, sadly.

And Zarhym wasn't using sarcasm.


Zarhym DRIPS sarcasm almost somewhere in every post.

"repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care. :)"

"Yea. We need more game designers like you who just really get it. ;)"

Only on this thread alone, but is just a small sample of the whole. Of course people are going to be legitimately mad, they put in some effort to achieve a goal, and blizzard is now rewarding people who put in no effort besides breathing.

I'm surprised more of these raider guys aren't seeing the bigger picture here.
Especially considering how it works in your favor bigtime over the long run.


It will have the opposite effect, as ICC did. They figure "we just took LFR go us to normal", get wiped then it will get nerfed.
I wish I could LFR. I sold everything and bought a Microbus so I could follow the Tauren Chieftains on tour.
As a "real" raider, there's a pressure to do LFR for the extra gear it provides. Unfortunately, this led to me defeating Deathwing in LFR before my guild got there in normal mode. It was very anticlimactic. I felt like I had no influence on the outcome, and the kill was just arbitrarily awarded for being in the same group as some people that knew what to do. So what if I topped the DPS meters? Replace me with an AFK-er and he [Deathwing, not the AFK-er >.>]would have died anyway. It wasn't fun, and I think it will make the real thing less fun as well.

I guess what I would like is to remove the gear incentive for raiders who would be doing this content anyway. I think LFR gear should have been lower item level than Firelands normal mode gear, if only slightly, or make LFR gear share a looting lockout with normal/heroic gear.


A real raider would have done this content on the PTR for months and it would already be pretty anti-climactic. ^^;;; Just saying...

I disagree with this idea. LFR is a great way to gear up alts. It basically brings back alt/pug raids, which cata previously pretty much killed.

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