Nerfs.

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01/23/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Jackjagalos
Non-raiders talking about raiding. The topic of "turning it off" keeps stemming from that.


Being disabled, I'm not able to raid any more. That doesn't change any of the facts here. These same discussions happened when Blizzard added buffs to ICC. The same results were reaped - the buffs happened and people learned to live with it.
If you've already beaten the hardmode bosses, you can continue to do so without the buff. If you can't beat the hardmode bosses without the buff, then you're what the buff is intended for.

It hurts, I know, to acknowledge that you're not on the bleeding edge of progression - but it might be time to face up to the facts. If you're going to lose recruits/progression because you've turned off the buff...you're no better than those "bad guilds" you claim will beat you by using the buff.


Because nobody has gotten better at anything over time.
Because nobody lost two weeks of progression to the Holidays.
Because nobody isn't still upgrading gear and going at the encounters with a better raid group every week.


Here's a tip: Try pvp, never ending amount of challenge. :P
01/23/2012 05:08 PMPosted by Cyberweasel
Yet quoted from blizzards mouth was that, if players want to see content, LFR. If you want the challenge and go to heroic.


And there was still NOTHING said by Blizzard that they wouldn't nerf content or add buffs. Nothing.

Some of you might have assumed that LFR meant there would be none - and now you're reaping the rewards of that assumption.


No, most of the arguments by several blue posters was that the elitists needed to suck it up and accept that others were going to get decent gear and be able to see all of the content without doing the whole; raid schedule and guild thing. (Or the nightmare of pugging.)

There are also quite a few posters who have been in this thread that were supportive of that and liked the idea that people would be able to do everything (core content wise) without the traditional MMO progression stream.


LFR has turned out to be just something for people with odd schedules and/or no guild. It allowed those who would not have seen the content at all to see it.

Normals and Heroics apparently are not where progression in the traditional sense stands. As rather than fixing the gearing progression and loot issues in DS, they are essentially giving us a 5% nerf to make up for RNG and bad luck for some people.

I'm convincing myself that this is a bandaid to solve a greater issue that will be fixed in MoP........ I'm convincing myself of that. That has to be why this is happening. *beats thought and nail into head deeper*
The so called "nerf" is actualy a way for casuals to get into END GAME content since a guild on every server has done it, in other words you weren't good enough to do it first so we'll give you a fighting chance Buff. Hah!
01/23/2012 05:10 PMPosted by Cyberweasel
Non-raiders talking about raiding. The topic of "turning it off" keeps stemming from that.


Being disabled, I'm not able to raid any more. That doesn't change any of the facts here. These same discussions happened when Blizzard added buffs to ICC. The same results were reaped - the buffs happened and people learned to live with it.
Big difference between ICC and DS. ICC was much, much harder than DS with no buff. ICC was designed with the buff in mind. Dragon Soul was designed with LFR in mind, so it isn't mechanic heavy. Professor Putricide was twice as hard as Madness with no buff, let alone going into the frost wing and Lich king himself.
01/23/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Iramunothard
Here's a tip: Try pvp, never ending amount of challenge. :P
This is about right.
01/23/2012 05:31 PMPosted by Aymeric
The so called "nerf" is actualy a way for casuals to get into END GAME content since a guild on every server has done it, in other words you weren't good enough to do it first so we'll give you a fighting chance Buff. Hah!


Saying a guild on every server has done it is actually incorrect (if you are talking about hard modes).
Generally, guilds in hard mode content want to do as well as possible, because the higher your given ranking and the better you do, the easier it is for you to recruit additional people whenever you need to. Turning the buff off means you run the risk of being bypassed by guilds who are using it. In order to keep your guild as alive as possible, you want to do as well as possible. That means nobody in their right mind is going to turn off the buff.


If you've already beaten the hardmode bosses, you can continue to do so without the buff. If you can't beat the hardmode bosses without the buff, then you're what the buff is intended for.

It hurts, I know, to acknowledge that you're not on the bleeding edge of progression - but it might be time to face up to the facts. If you're going to lose recruits/progression because you've turned off the buff...you're no better than those "bad guilds" you claim will beat you by using the buff.


If I wanted to be on the very bleeding edge of progression, I wouldn't have purposely joined a guild that raids only 10 hours a week. You need to stop assuming everyone you speak with is suffering delusions of grandeur.


Much of recruitment depends on impression. Generally speaking, recruits looking for hard-mode content will apply to the guilds that:

a) they think they can compete in
b) have a schedule they can and want to make
c) are the highest possibly progressed while matching a & b.

It therefore behooves guilds at that level to do the best they can, not just for the sake of it, but because it helps ensure their continued survival. Turning off the buff works against that. Therefore nobody will turn it off.

It's also not about beating "bad guilds" - what the hell is a bad guild, anyway? Do you have a threshold or are you just spouting BS?

Yes, we can progress without the nerf. I have no doubt that we'd kill Madness Heroic without it. We're skilled enough. My guess is that if my guild had a 5 day a week 25 hour raiding schedule, we'd be bleeding edge - matter of fact, several members are former members of just that sort of guild. Point being we don't want that kind of investment, which is why we raid 10 1/2 hours a week on a 3 day schedule instead.


I know it hurts to acknowledge that you're just uninformed and being obtuse, but you might want to try and face the facts.

01/23/2012 05:10 PMPosted by Cyberweasel
The same results were reaped - the buffs happened and people learned to live with it.


Doesn't mean I have to like it, does it? Nor does it mean I can't voice that.
01/23/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Hronah
Big difference between ICC and DS. ICC was much, much harder than DS with no buff. ICC was designed with the buff in mind. Dragon Soul was designed with LFR in mind, so it isn't mechanic heavy. Professor Putricide was twice as hard as Madness with no buff, let alone going into the frost wing and Lich king himself.


Ah, how time does fly. It's a shame we don't have the old forum posts anymore, but I'm very sure there are many, many on these forums that remember the "ICC is SOOOO much easier than <insert random raid here>" discussions that occurred when the ICC buff was added.

Much of recruitment depends on impression. Generally speaking, recruits looking for hard-mode content will apply to the guilds that:

a) they think they can compete in
b) have a schedule they can and want to make
c) are the highest possibly progressed while matching a & b.


And since there are always players at any level of progression in the raids, your recruitment shouldn't suffer at all, no matter where you are in progression.

01/23/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
It's also not about beating "bad guilds" - what the hell is a bad guild, anyway? Do you have a threshold or are you just spouting BS?


Perhaps you should go through this thread and read some of the comments. I don't judge a guild on its progression - since I don't progress in raids any more, it would be useless for me to do so. Many in this thread, however, do - and they are the ones you should be asking for the definition of "bad guilds".

01/23/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Doesn't mean I have to like it, does it? Nor does it mean I can't voice that.


Of course you're welcome to voice your opinion. Just as I am welcome to voice mine.
01/23/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Vreivai
Saying that the 5% debuff can be turned off is foolish. To anyone with experience in the raiding community, you know this isn't an option.


This comment is foolish. It is, in fact, a option. You CAN turn it off, you just choose not too.
Of course you're welcome to voice your opinion. Just as I am welcome to voice mine.


Difference being that yours is misinformed.

01/23/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Cyberweasel
And since there are always players at any level of progression in the raids, your recruitment shouldn't suffer at all, no matter where you are in progression.


That's BS and you know it.
01/18/2012 07:08 PMPosted by Bashiok

If they don't have to be like us, why do they have to have nerfs to get to our position in HM Raiding?


I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?

Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.


This right here is everything that is wrong with the game. The way this was originally worded, you said something about everyone paying the same $15 a month. We are treated like customers rather than players. What used to be a game has become an advanced social network based around a disgusting theme park feel-good way of playing. If things are too hard for a (rather annoying) majority of players that take to the forums, you nerf it instantly. You fear us. You have too much data for your own good. You look at the difficulty of content vs how many subscriptions you lose.

This game, and it used to be a game, was originally designed around an elitist style. Only those at the very top of the game could venture into the newest and greatest content. The rest were stuck farming Strat and Scholo with 15+ players to try to build up their gear. Guilds wiped for months on end in MC and BWL, even when AQ was released. The original C'thun fight was only nerfed after a considerable amount of complaining from the top guilds in the world. The fight was literally impossible. I use this as an example of how your original team designed the game. Those that are the absolute best will clear your content. They will find a way to get it done. That is what used to be expected. Things were possible, you just had to be VERY good in order to accomplish them. Eventually the average players could progress enough either by learning or by building up enough gear to just overpower the fights they were stuck on.

Was this the right way? Perhaps not. Sure, it is nice for everyone to see the content for themselves. But never forget that what made your game popular was the allure of that which the majority of players could not attain. People always want what they can't have. The average idiot running around in blues used to marvel over the T1 epics. Those with T1 used to envy those with T2. Those few that had finally farmed the content until their eyes bled and collected full BiS still enjoyed raiding for the environment and hanging out with their guild. To my understanding, this is why hardmodes were introduced.

I would love to see the game go back to this style where the attitude of the developers is, "Well, we tested it, and it is definitely possible. Figure out a way how." I HATE being told how to do the encounter. Possibly my favorite thing in this entire game to date has been my hunter's epic leaf quest. It is understandable that nerfs come with time. But for what it's worth, let us have our fun trying to down the content. If tweaks are to be made, make them on an encounter basis. Don't offer up a blanket nerf a month and a half into the content. Hell, I cleared the entire raid on the first week it was released. That is nothing short of sad.

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