Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar

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Or if they are still working at Blizzard, make them in charge of raid design again please.

I am steadily getting burnt out by the same ol' same ol' of the raiding design that started with the atrocity which was ToC.

Normal 10-man -> Flip a switch -> Heroic 10-man

Normal 25-man -> Flip a switch -> Heroic 25-man

There has nothing been quite like the, "OMG!" moment when you pushed that big red button in Mim's room. Or when everyone in the raid blew all of their CDs to get XT's heart down only to see him regain full health and start wailing on the tank even harder.

I don't know how to explain it, but there was more depth with the hardmodes in Ulduar. Whether it was just a DPS race, or having to deal with a slew of new mechanics like Freya, I can say that I have never enjoyed a raiding as much as I did than when I did Ulduar and I was very sad when ToC came out as a tier raid.

Can we please remove the "switch" for hardmodes please? Can we have more of a variety of drops rather than three pieces of the same gear with slightly different colors and some green lettering? Can we please get Ulduar 2.0? *puppydogeyes*

Thank you~
I cant remember his first name, but last name was Tigule... or.. Tigole.. can never remember X_X


he was in charge till ulduar, then went to Project Titan I believe.... and that is when ghostcrawler stepped in and took his place..... and then cata happened... xD

but yeah I miss ulduar.... My favorite raid.. so much there, even after you 100% clear the place, go and look around at the details, the glowy lights... THE PRETTY!(and turn up graphics even if you have a crappy computer lol...) there is a RAID to EXPLORE... versus the current 'get in, get on, get out' of the current expansion of raids.


heres hoping if/when Titan comes out (if its an MMO.. guessing starcraft, halo, or some other topic) that with Tigule/ole's hand in it, we get as epic a place as we did with ulduar.
01/25/2012 06:41 PMPosted by Jessebella
By easier, do you mean less pep-work? Because apparently progression in DS hasn't been stellar. Its doesn't sound like raiding has gotten too easy


LOL AT THIS STATEMENT!
It literally took our guild who are semi-casual, who started early-mid firelands, raid 2-3 days a week depending on many people show up, exactly a month and two days to get a guild Madness kill, and we are now 2/8 heroic... you cannot honestly say that DS progression is
hard. You have SO many outlets to obtain the gear required to to DS it isn't even funny.
There is LFR, which also shows you the fights, the new HoT dungeons, which give Fireland equiv. Gear, you have Firelands itself, AND you have Valor Gear, which is EQUIVILENT to what you get in Dragon Soul. I cant even taking your argument at face value it is so ridiculous.
01/26/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Virtutis
Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


There are some very odd statements here and also somewhat disingenuous.

For starters, Algalon was designed to be a heroic only boss and it was behind a wall of heroic bosses just to get to him. The targeted audience for this boss was the progression guilds that were working towards or clearing heroics - these are the very same guilds that never had a problem with the instance being "too large" or taking "too long" - rather these are the very guilds that had the time to do so.

To design him that way and then afterwards proclaim that the main reason so many didn't see him was.... the instance was too large... is at the very least a very silly statement. The modern equivalent of this boss is Sinestra and even now - 2 tiers later - only 2% of guilds have killed it. Please do not tell me in MoP the reson for not having such a boss will again be "because it took too long to clear BoT so not many people saw Sinestra...".

Next, I am not sure if you actually raided during Ulduar or not but Yogg Saron was a huge increase in difficulty from the previous bosses. While some higher end guilds may not have had the same issues, for the vast majority of casual guilds, dealing with clouds - particularly before they announced who they hit - was enough to leave with you no hair.

Yogg Saron, normal 25 man (before taking any keepers away) has the distinct pleasure of being almost tied to Lich King heroic for the number of failed attempts to kill boss. The only other boss that was in that ballpark was Sartharion 3D so to say once again that that Yogg Saron was not difficult and once again it was because the instance was too large makes it feel like you never actually raided this tier when it was current at all.

Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


Ulduar had the longest longevity of every raid in WotLK and Cataclysm. One of the biggest problems with Ulduar was that you released ToC too soon.

Ulduar was released on 14 April 2009 and ToC on 4 August 2009 which only left 4 months of progression in there and the vast majority of raiding guilds were still working on Ulduar bosses - we even went back in there for several montsh after ToC was released finishing bosses, and a large reason for that was because the fights were so much better and more fun and were still considered progression.

This instance was designed to take time to clear which gave it a long life span. If you designed raids like this you don't need to bring out content faster. The only reason you have to bring out content so much faster now is because you shot yourselves in the foot and designed the content to be cleared faster.

I will never understand the mentality behind designing content that can be gobbled up in a few weeks then complaining about us being bored and having nothing to do - and then using this as a justification for reducing the content further. It is no wonder people are starting to get ansy for new stuff in shorter time periods - you designed it that way.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.


You know I hold the example of Ulduar in one hand and the example of having a "toggle" for heroic mode in the other and sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand the point of view that it is hard to make consistently new and unique ways of engaging heroics - but what the bloody hell do you think we are doing now? We HAVE a big red button for every single boss mode - the only difference is the mouse click is on your UI instead of on the wall. You talk about the mechanics in Ulduar becoming gimmicky after a time and yet the method you currently have in place is - and this is a personal opinion here so others will disagree - the stupidest design for implementing heroic modes since you first started experimenting with them.

There is no story behind them, no reason for there to be a heroic, no flow on with Raid design. I can't help visualising the Boss in front of us going "Come on, toggle that litte button and I will show you what I have under this kilt...!".

Long story short, if you design instances like Ulduar that are made to last, and have engaging switches between heroics and normals then not only do you have more time to create content and people are not in such a rush to move on, but you have much more engaging encounters that people talk about 2 years later. From a raider point of view I would have thought this is a win/win - you get more slack on the reigns to design better and more well thought out content.

But please, do not try to tell us that the reason you don't want to do this is because it takes too long to design and we want more content more quickly when the very reason we need that content more quickly is because you intentionally designed it that way.

This post needs to be stickied ><
Nobody ever wants to pug Ulduar. Getting the achievements is nearly impossible.
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week
So? Wasn't this raid a good thing? Didn't playerbase start to descend after this patch? IF its what caused playerbase to go up, and is so highly liked, it should've been kept. But don't do something EVERY patch or it'll go stale... I honestly thought ToC and dungeon finder were the cause for the playerbase to finally hit its peak and started its descent.
01/26/2012 05:40 PMPosted by Atticurse
Nobody ever wants to pug Ulduar. Getting the achievements is nearly impossible.


Might be a realm related issue for you, becuase at least on my realm i've gotten both my 10m AND 25m drakes on this toon in PuGs, and we spammed for ~15/25 minutes respectively, additionally i see raids for it all the time (not exagerrating, probably 1-3 a week THAT I SEE)

Either way that is off topic since it doesn't deal with how Ulduar WAS when it was current content, not an expansion ago, even though i make a point to go back there every once and a while to just kill Yogg and Algalon again.
I really don't mind having smaller raids but honestly Dragon Soul is just boring. It's just poorly thought out and I'm already getting bored of plodding through this content. Honestly if I didn't just sub for a year in Oct to get into Panda beta/Diablo since I'd be buying it anyway I'd be seriously considering deactivating my account until the Mists events started up and I've had an active account since mid BC. I know Blizzard quality and Dragon Soul just isn't it. I would've been a little more okay with maybe having a daily hub or something else to supplement the raid in addition to the three five mans which while of good quality I would've preferred in a raid style environment (at least end of time anyhow the others not near as much). I realize a lot of the development time was contributed to the lfr which I'm thankful for even though I do normal mode raids with my guild, I LOVE transmorg, but raiding is the bread and butter in this game to me other than pet collecting and if the raiding is subpar... I just don't want to play. :(
Best raid ever. If you wanna constantly recycle content and ideas. This is your gem. 1 epic raid with hard mode options. This game hasn't been as fun since your pushing fast content crap.


This. I'd like to know why Blizzard thinks we like short crappy raids instead of one huge immersive instance per tier.


Not all short raids are "crappy". Short raids (I'm talking 4-5 bosses, not 1 or 2), CAN be immersive if designed well.


Blizzard has to take responsibility for the clear degradation of the WoW community.

Back in BC, there was a very different mentality in the playerbase. Yes, there were some people who complained, but on the whole it was very different. The forums were full of threads asking for strategical help (which we see little of these days - it's all pretty much whining over content being too hard or too easy) and players took it as par for the course that raiding would involve a lot of wiping.
However, players in general loved the experience and learning each encounter at their own pace.

And the trash was used not only as a pacing mechanism, but was really well designed in how it set the stage for the upcoming boss encounter.

Examples:
Karazhan - Moroes trash, Maiden trash, Opera, Curator trash. All had a very different feel to them and help set the atmosphere for the boss they led to.
Ulduar - Pretty much all of it. Perfecty designed for the boss encounters they led up to.


Now however, if trash takes more than 2 mins, people whine it's excessive and needs reducing/removing. Also, too much of the trash now does just seem pointless because it doesn't do anything to set the stage for the boss. Firelands trash was pretty horrible all around and that zone, whilst having a couple of wonderful boss fights, did lack atmosphere. BoT and BWD trash really wasn't much better. Atramedes trash didn't prepare you or set the stage for a fight with a blind dragon. Nor did the Magmaw trash set the stage for encounter with giant worm.


I still believe Blizzard themselves are primarily responsible for the volatile and vindictive state of the WoW community. They set the tone by completely altering player content expectations in undertuning Wrath heroics and Naxxramas ridiculously.
Ever since then, players have had the expectation that all content should be easily puggable.

Nexumus, much as I hate to say it, was right, way back in early Wrath when he stated that the course was set and Ulduar and all future raids would need to be tuned around the level of Naxxramas difficulty wise to keep casuals subscribing.

If anything, content got even easier than Naxx was, with ToC and then ICC (with 30% buff).

Blizzard needs to get a strong and specific plan in place for MoP BEFORE its released. They need to plan out the ilevels, reward structures and progression aims in a way that satisfies players the most and not only maintains subscriptions, but actively boosts customer satisfaction with the game overall.

Right now, WoW is in a big mess. Content is a meaningless joke with shiny purplez as many casuals' reason for playing.

Blizzard needs to take steps to retune player expectations for WoW and make higher quality content. The result may be short term loss of fickle casuals, but the long term gains will vastly outweigh that.


If they do MoP right, Blizzard could regain a lot of the players who've left because of disatisfaction with where they've taken WoW as well as attract new players.
01/26/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Virtutis
Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


There are some very odd statements here and also somewhat disingenuous.

For starters, Algalon was designed to be a heroic only boss and it was behind a wall of heroic bosses just to get to him. The targeted audience for this boss was the progression guilds that were working towards or clearing heroics - these are the very same guilds that never had a problem with the instance being "too large" or taking "too long" - rather these are the very guilds that had the time to do so.

To design him that way and then afterwards proclaim that the main reason so many didn't see him was.... the instance was too large... is at the very least a very silly statement. The modern equivalent of this boss is Sinestra and even now - 2 tiers later - only 2% of guilds have killed it. Please do not tell me in MoP the reson for not having such a boss will again be "because it took too long to clear BoT so not many people saw Sinestra...".

Next, I am not sure if you actually raided during Ulduar or not but Yogg Saron was a huge increase in difficulty from the previous bosses. While some higher end guilds may not have had the same issues, for the vast majority of casual guilds, dealing with clouds - particularly before they announced who they hit - was enough to leave with you no hair.

Yogg Saron, normal 25 man (before taking any keepers away) has the distinct pleasure of being almost tied to Lich King heroic for the number of failed attempts to kill boss. The only other boss that was in that ballpark was Sartharion 3D so to say once again that that Yogg Saron was not difficult and once again it was because the instance was too large makes it feel like you never actually raided this tier when it was current at all.

Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


Ulduar had the longest longevity of every raid in WotLK and Cataclysm. One of the biggest problems with Ulduar was that you released ToC too soon.

Ulduar was released on 14 April 2009 and ToC on 4 August 2009 which only left 4 months of progression in there and the vast majority of raiding guilds were still working on Ulduar bosses - we even went back in there for several montsh after ToC was released finishing bosses, and a large reason for that was because the fights were so much better and more fun and were still considered progression.

This instance was designed to take time to clear which gave it a long life span. If you designed raids like this you don't need to bring out content faster. The only reason you have to bring out content so much faster now is because you shot yourselves in the foot and designed the content to be cleared faster.

I will never understand the mentality behind designing content that can be gobbled up in a few weeks then complaining about us being bored and having nothing to do - and then using this as a justification for reducing the content further. It is no wonder people are starting to get ansy for new stuff in shorter time periods - you designed it that way.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.


You know I hold the example of Ulduar in one hand and the example of having a "toggle" for heroic mode in the other and sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand the point of view that it is hard to make consistently new and unique ways of engaging heroics - but what the bloody hell do you think we are doing now? We HAVE a big red button for every single boss mode - the only difference is the mouse click is on your UI instead of on the wall. You talk about the mechanics in Ulduar becoming gimmicky after a time and yet the method you currently have in place is - and this is a personal opinion here so others will disagree - the stupidest design for implementing heroic modes since you first started experimenting with them.

There is no story behind them, no reason for there to be a heroic, no flow on with Raid design. I can't help visualising the Boss in front of us going "Come on, toggle that litte button and I will show you what I have under this kilt...!".

Long story short, if you design instances like Ulduar that are made to last, and have engaging switches between heroics and normals then not only do you have more time to create content and people are not in such a rush to move on, but you have much more engaging encounters that people talk about 2 years later. From a raider point of view I would have thought this is a win/win - you get more slack on the reigns to design better and more well thought out content.

But please, do not try to tell us that the reason you don't want to do this is because it takes too long to design and we want more content more quickly when the very reason we need that content more quickly is because you intentionally designed it that way.


Well said. You say pretty much what I've made many posts saying over the last few months, and you say it better than I do.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3710773060?page=1
01/26/2012 05:40 PMPosted by Atticurse
Nobody ever wants to pug Ulduar. Getting the achievements is nearly impossible.
you just havent tried bro! lol.. Lead afew of these and gotten just about everyone who went with , their drakes.. on multiple toons, the only one that truly gave trouble was either Yogg....(trying no light pre firelands/DS...... or it being like 1-2 in the morning or later... x-x), or Freya lol... (KILL ALL THE ADDS CLOSE TO THE SAME TIME OR THEY REZZ.... repeatedly)

and the disarmed ... can be a major pain, but just NO DOTS.... and watch damage lol... get arms to around 35%, pew pew right arm, pew pew left, burn the last 5% body and gg lol


Ulduar is, and was.. an EPIC RAID... not just a long string of hallsways (or in this latest raid... raids a cripple who lost their cane could use due to lack of actual movement between bosses lol) there isnt anything worth exploring in this current tier, there wasnt in the last tier, and.... not much in the tier before that (though bastions rather interesting to look at.... but not in the scale ulduar had)



Ulduar <3 ... everything past it.... meh

In my opinion Tigule/Tigole worked in epic 3d holgraphic masterpieces, Ghostcrawler works in Circles and lines made into stick-figures/dungeons/raids


Heres hoping ^ does well on Titan, and not -----------------------------------------------^
You recognize how fondly the devs as well as players remember Ulduar but then list problems and reasons as to why raids won't be like it. Apparently people don't really care about the problems you listed because its widely considered to be far better than all of the cata raids. Find a solution that would make more people kill yogg and algalon then. Ulduar worked, you admitted it, the players want its style back so why not go back to it. When people talk about the best raid in wows history, ulduar is mentioned more than any other raid. The only other one that comes to mind is Kara ( coincidently had sort of the same style as ulduar).
/SIGN

Ulduar may have been the best raid to ever hit WoW. esspecially how the hard mode systems worked. Not to even mention the graphical design of the raid.

Ulduar is my most favored raid, followed by Icecrown Citadel, and then Karazan.

I honestly couldn't care less about hardmodes, nerfs and progression though, my concern is; will I have fun? Will I be excited to play it?

And that's something this xpac has lacked. I've had very little fun in raids as a tank, a healer and even a dps, and I've certainly haven't had any enthusiasm about participating on a weekily basis. In my opinion that's one of the main reasons I've seen so many people on forums and in game saying negative things about WoW and this xpac, it's just not all that fun.
01/26/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Layuth
You are not losing subscriptions because people "do not see" the content. You are losing subscriptions because what people " do see" is not up to par.

Also ^^^that..

>.<
01/26/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Layuth
You are not losing subscriptions because people "do not see" the content. You are losing subscriptions because what people " do see" is not up to par.


And they see it all during patch release week, meaning there's "nothing to do" until the next patch release week.

There MUST be more to see to keep people logging in.

It MUST take some time to go through all available content at max level to keep people interested.

These are not rules that can be broken if you expect success.
This thread needs to be permanently continued

It is 100% spot on. Ulduar is by a long way the most enjoyable and immersive raid instance. As you progress through it even now you feel like youre part of a story fighting your way down to yogg. I'd be perfectly happy with a single raid instance with say 25 bosses each with a hard mode than you can enable in some strange or fancy way for one super long tier. You'd also get more life out of an expansion before having to develop a new one if you designed larger raid instances and didnt nerf them. 3 ulduar sized instances (or even 2 big and one 5-7 boss) would last 18+ months if done properly, not nerfed, difficult heroic modes.

Imo the content shouldnt be released so top end guilds can clear it in weeks, it should be released to stump top end guilds. Normal modes for normal raiders, hard modes for no lifers ;). The whole direction raiding is taking this xpac seems contrary to the point of raiding.

man, i miss ulduar.

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