Cataclysm PVP Feedback

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•What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

The ability to "gear up" on my own time and terms without being responsible "to" or "for" anyone. I really love playing along side and versus other people, I just don't want othe people to determine my play schedule or how I enjoy the game.

I really loved Tol Barad (I also like Wintergrasp) but I think it should have been "kept up to date" with each patch. It's almost as if Blizzard forgot about it except for the obligatory "raid boss".

I love Battle for Gilneas and the new WSG style BG map. Very well done. I actually like IoC when it's played well by both sides but like AV it's a bit of a crap shoot and the "rush to the end boss" players and their mentality ruin what could otherwise be some epic BG's. AV really should be put in as an optional BG and make it so an average AV should take 60 to 90 mins, something really epic but something that is queued up for by those who really want an epic pvp experience. AV is just an honor farm but ironically it tends to contain the least amount of PvP of any of the BG's.

Overall Arathi Basin is the best BG for me and a good nail-biting AB is a really good time imo.

•What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

I really found out through the years and various arena teams that a.) arenas are not fun b.) they make you feel like you are trapped in a box c.) certain comps/classes are favored over others and d.) arenas are hard on my nerves (it's really bad for my relationship to arena with my girlfriend (who is my pvp buddy)). Due to the above, I don't arena anymore other than to get points and that's only when I absolutely have to get the points before tuesday. So, all I can say is that I am glad Arenas play less of a role in Cata's PVP system than it used to. If Blizzard eliminated arenas altogether and put all the remaining pvp resources into battlegrounds and world PvP it wouldn't be a moment too soon for me.

•What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

Again, the ability to get the necessary gear without being beholden to others was the best improvement in the game since the time they first offered battlegrounds.

I like how the queue system works. I like how people can't "battleground" jump like they used to.

I also like how the offering of conquest points actually rewards winning over just "farming" honor. I have seen a huge improvement to gameplay since this came into being. To take this further I wish they eliminated the whole stratification of gear depending on rating and eliminated honor altogether. Just give conquest points for a win, none for a loss, and that's it. Save enough points and buy whatever you want. Then the only motivation would be to win, whatever venue you are in.

I think another thing to consider, in order to lower further the influence of "bots" and farmers, would be to have a "captcha" whenever you queue for a BG and when it pops you have to enter in another "captcha" code. To take it a step further and make gameplay even more secure, give players an option to queue for the most authentic of bg's and have them both "captcha" and "auntheticator" protected. That way, when you are in that BG, you know everyone else fighting alongside you is a real person, sitting at their computer, on their own account with their own ability to earn points on the line.

Random BGs
Twin Peaks and BoG took two models that worked and basically just cloned them. I like the decision of making these both small scale 10 man games, because in smaller games I can feel like I individually have a pretty substantial impact on my team’s success. It was also a really good decision for the game to allow you to cap conquest points through random BGs, just as people can cap Valor points through heroics. People need something to work towards.

The fanbase for arena is still there. Just look at the success of the NAO tournament recently. 12.5K unique viewers at once, that’s incredible for an MMO. I liked the changes to Dalaran Sewers and Ring of Valor a lot. Cross-BG queues were also a great idea, but I think it could be sped up a bit to improve queue times. For me, arena is still tons of fun and I like the fact that skill can trump gear and comp makeup. Making everyone on equal footing is a good idea (except for t2 vs t1 weapons) as far as gear goes. You don’t hit that brick wall early of not being able to finish your season’s set of gear early in the season.

RBGs were an excellent idea, and playing at some of the highest ratings, the games can be really competitive and fun. The decision to make it 10m only just made it a lot easier logistics wise to play with your set team. I think the pace of leveling up your rating is just about right too. You catch up to your MMR pretty quickly and it didn’t take forever like it did in Season 9. Overall, I’m really happy with RBGs.

Class Balance
Despite the crying on the forums, I think class balance is actually the best it’s ever been. There will always strong classes and specs, I think that’s just the nature of the metagame. What people don’t understand is when certain classes are popular that “counter” other classes,that lowers the countered class’ representation. If warlocks and shadowpriests are popular, then hunters are going to struggle. If ferals are popular, then rogues are going to struggle. There will always be room for improvement, but I mean it’s good to see specs like enhance and feral be a viable choice at high ratings.

It’s quick to gear now, especially if you just hit max level on a new alt. Honor gear is close enough in power to conquest gear in case people don’t want to do rated PvP to get gear. I also think resilience feels about right in terms of effectiveness. It’s not too powerful where you want to sacrifice every other single stat for it, but you definitely need a healthy amount to boost your survivability.

World PvP/Tol Barad
I thought Tol Barad was cool as a daily quest hub, and the honor for Tol Barad where right about where it should be.
Random BGs
a. I hope the next BGs you guys make will have a unique goal – not one based of reinforcements/killing opposing leader, not CTF, not resource node based – something unique. Look to other MMOs and FPS to see what other kinds work. Something original and NOT vehicle based would be nice. Also a smart queing system making the teams around the save avg ilvl would be nice. The other thing I would say it to make it actually viable to cap conquest through random BGs. Right now you would have to win a minimum of 26 random BGs a week to get the standard 1650 points a week. That’s way too much, and it needs to be viable to actually cap out this way. If you kept the same system, I would say around 250 pts/win would be a better pace.

a. Let’s face it – you need to get people to play arena again. The bottom has pretty much fallen out, partly because they don’t have a lot of success, partly because they don’t have a lot to work towards (if you’re a 1700 player, 2200 is a far ways away – there’s nothing to work towards). In the past, gear was the carrot on the stick. I’m not sure if that’s the best option, but at least people wanted to try to play to achieve a goal in their reach. The other reason why the bottom has fallen out is because it’s just really hard for people that aren’t high rated to find teams and players to play with them. Nobody wants to post (1400 rogue LF 3s) in trade, and nobody wants to play with that person. There needs to be some kind of interface so people can find partners easier (spamming trade isn’t ideal). I even found a few partners over the years in skirmishes.
b. The other main thing that has plagued arena this season is cheating. It’s always been there – it’s hard to prevent completely. But almost no effort has been taken to stop this. The MMR fiasco was really inexcusable, and it plagued two out of the three seasons. Someone getting their account played to high ratings is harder to prove since it often involves third-party communication like Skype/Paypal, but it’s still painfully obvious when it happens. You guys have all the tools to recognize cheating, please use them or make them available to the public (why was arena match history taken out of armory – just makes wintrading go unrecognized). If you want this game to have a respected competitive aspect, it must be protected. Just like you guys punish exploiters in PvE, the same needs to be done to cheaters in PvP.
c. The ratio of people who do random BG/Tol Barad to people who do arena/RBGs is very low, much lower than the ratio of the people who do heroics/questing to those who raid. While I understand that more hardcore styles of play is not for everyone (there are still a lot of people who don’t raid either), ideas like the Raid Finder need to be implemented for competitive PvP as well. Get people playing arena again. NAO is proof that people are still interested in arena. It is worth it because this game WILL eventually survive off of PvP, not PvE.

a. I think you guys have learned from mistakes pretty well. Obviously SOTA and 15 mans weren’t the best idea, but you quickly recognized it. There were bugs with the MMR in Season 9, but you eventually fixed that as well. Quicker action needs to be taken. There was a time where the only maps you could play were Twin Peaks and Gilneas because you were fixing the GY on WSG, designing AB for 10m, and fixing the mid for EOTS. That’s really unacceptable, and things like putting a few rocks in EOTS should not take 4 months. It just shows how priorities were low.
RBGs cont
The other thing also goes back to what I said about arena – participation is a little low, although it’s better than it is in arena. It’s also less frustrating to fight a team two or three teams in a row than in arena against a comp/players you can’t beat multiple times in a row. A random RBG finder could be implemented to get more people playing. People view arena and RBGs as too hardcore, and since honor gear is so easy and quick to get, there becomes a problem for that player who finishes gearing honor gear but doesn’t have the time to devote to a set RBG or arena team to play. I’m positive a lot of subs have been lost because of this reason.

Class Balance
a. Despite the fact that you guys have the ability to make minor tweaks pretty easily with hotfixes, I don’t think enough is done and not nearly as frequently as other games. It is a fine line on what to change and you can’t be trigger happy for sure, but things that are obviously broken (DK instant hungering cold on a 1min CD, Deep Freeze – Ring of Frost) shouldn’t take months to fix. Resto Druids being awful in PvP needed to be addressed in 4.3, but it wasn’t. Please – they need help. There are other little tweaks that could be useful. Play around more often and listen to the community.
b. I think PASSIVE self-healing for DPS classes is stupid. That’s why I’m glad Fel Armor was nerfed. But things like recuperate, warrior self-healing,
c. The only class/ability I’m going to comment on is Smoke Bomb. This ability is cool and unique, but absolutely too powerful. It is pretty much impossible to counter if the target does not have a PvP trinket. I’d say taking it off Preparation would be a very good idea. Rogues are pretty much the only class that is 100% necessary for a RBG, and it’s because of this ability.

a. As I touched on before, there just doesn’t seem to be enough to work on if you are a player who has gotten all their gear from random BGs, but doesn’t want to devote themselves to arena/RBGs. And also those who are far away from 2200, there’s no carrot on a stick for them to get pretty much any reward up to that point.
b. I think the damage vs health ratio started off really good in Season 9 – it felt pretty much perfect. But it’s just completely gone out of wack as scaling for things like mage mastery is as messed up as 100% Armor Pen back in Wrath. Burst is too high, and it feels like Season 8 again. A lot of this is because of Vial of Shadows, which I’m glad is being addressed. Legendaries in RBGs and Arenas also just needs to stop. I guarantee you almost every high rated rogue in 3 months will have the daggers, and it’s like that with every season. It’s a simple fix that would go a LONG way for balance.
c. The other thing for gearing is mana management – and I think this is especially highlighted in 2s. Regen is just way too high. No healer goes oom in 2s except if there is a DK tunneling you. This is a problem in PvE as well, and I understand it’s a little late to fix it this expansion. I think it’s more of a “make sure to look 3 tiers from now” when designing next expansion.

World PvP/Tol Barad
a. I’m trusting your word that people aren’t going to be sitting in cities as much next expansion. I also thing that maybe Pandaria doesn’t need a designated PvP zone like WG or TB. Tol Barad just wasn’t that fun or engaging. It was too easy for the attacking faction to win, and actually just pretty boring since every game went the same. Wintergrasp had a lot more dynamism to it, leading to more epic battles. Even something as simple as how you entered WG felt more epic – people crowding at the portals 5 minutes before the battle compared to Qing from your menu.

I think most people have covered the the CC and snare problems. Spamable AOE snares and snares that are "free" (don't require the sacrifice of damage or global cooldown) I believe should be reduced/removed.

As far as balance, some classes have too little and some have every tool imaginable in spades. Instead of just giving these tools to everyone in order to balance (homoginization) I think the best answer would be to take some things away from some classes so that everyone can bring something to the table but not eveything. Then balance damage and survivability around that.

Also, loved the concept of rated BG's (was the thing I ws most looking forward to) but really disappointed in there implemention. I know some people enjoy it alot and I certainly don;t want to ruin that but as some people pointed out it is very limiting. For some gettinga decent arena team is hard enough and under the current system, getting essentially a 10 man arena team (that actually has a chance to win a match) is extremely difficult.

I would love to see this change . I like the idea of a system similar to the raid finder as someone stated above. I think the randomness is part of the fun of BG's (larger groups can still group together and would still trickle to the top). Another idea is to let people queue in 5 person groups. Then you could open up all battlegrounds regardless of size. Plus this adds the extra challenge of having to coordinate with other groups. Single most hope for MoP if for better accessability to rated BG's. Second biggest hope, MUCH better class balance and better realization of the goal to slow the pace of pvp (the wounded state thing).
•What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

1.) BG design:

Too many of the BG's are designed poorly so that the key objectives of a given BG don't encourage direct PvP. AV is obviously guilty of this. When the alliance's and horde's big objectives are on the total opposite ends of the bg, you just encourage the sort of "wave as you run by" encounters we see there. Sure, any smart person knows how important the towers can be, but without true coordination and a true "leader" you get group "every man for himself" (not the racial ability) mentality. What results is everybody makes a cold hard calculation as to what's best for them on an individual level (which boils down to fast honor or at the very least a fast win/fast loss, sadly) which cumulatively makes for gameplay effects that most of the time do not resemble true pvp. I'm not even saying "true pvp" is where people have to "kill each other, deathmatch style" but we do actually have to you know, engage the enemy somehow.

Other BG's, like Netherstorm, hold a lot of promise, but a lot of the time it seems like the "player versus player" aspect of it is on your own team consisting of people arguing whether it's better to "hold 3 and no flags" or "hold 2 and control mid/flags" or "run around like idiots and fight on roads". Again, Blizzard has disconnected objectives from where pvp occurs naturally. Blizzard, at some point, has to realize that "the hive mind" and "emfh" and "mob mentality" aren't ever going to go away and they should build BG's with that in mind so that what we do naturally actually jives with the battleground mechanics.

Look, I'm more than willing to sit at the AB farm all game to defend it from the occasional attacker. I also know it's a good way to get honor. However, don't tell me I am having more fun than the idiots zerging stables, because I'm not. A lot of the times, it's much more fun to be an idiot just to be where the action is. Trying to make it so BG's operate in a way where "being where the action is" also happens to be the "right strategic place to be". Gilneas is a good example of this done right. Now, figure out how to do it on a grander scale.

2.) Certain classes are just frustrating to go against:

Every so often there's a "one many army class" - 3.0 Ret Paladins, Warriors on occasion, and our currently beloved Blood dk's. Try to avoid the "one man army" fotm class/spec.

Classes that operate on the whole axis of "denying other players the ability to control their character". Rogues, mages, warlocks... I am looking at you. I am not saying whether those classes are over or underpowered. I am just saying they are framed around their core pvp kit that involved denying other classes control of their character. They are frustrating to play against, and for some of us, guilt-inducing to play as. Please break these 3 classes and rebuild them around something that involves something THEY DO as opposed to being about something they make other people NOT BE ABLE TO DO. How you do that, I don't know but as it stands they are not balanceable because the window of "just the right amount of CC, damage, mitigation, and self healing" is so small Blizzard can never get it right patch after patch. They always over shoot or undershoot.

•What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

When I play arenas I feel like I am trapped inside a box. When my girlfriend plays arenas she feels like she is trapped inside a box and being repeatedly punched in the face by a class that has a lot more CC than her. I love my girlfriend, she is also my pvp buddy. Do I need to say more?
01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

I love Twin Peaks, battle for gilneas not so much but i think that's as much a player issue than anything.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

This wasn't just cata, but trying to gear up an alt after you've just hit max level is really frustrating to do with the level of gear that other people have.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

My biggest issue was some of the arena designs, i'm really not a big fan of having multiple levels on a map, I know it's probably not much of a problem in 3's but it's very annoying in two's when you're a melee.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

I would say some classes in regards to their utility had too high of damage, i would like to see more of glass cannons with lower utility or higher utility but lower damage.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to?

Loving the talent trees, seems like they are addressing what i said previously though some other classes seem to be getting alot of stuff. The murderball and dota style bg's sound awesome though the diamond mine one seems really complicated, i'm a little worried about how the general battleground player will handle this.
•What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

1.) Too much CC in general. Too much "spammable" CC. Too much "dogpiling" of CC where the influx of CC is just overwhelming to the point where you aren't in control of your character for most of an encounter before you are dead.

Look, I understand that CC has it's place and it's what Blizzard uses to different the best players from the rest of us. I also know CC is what helps players kill healers or take them out of the game while you kill their buddies However, it doesn't HAVE TO BE this way. There are other mechanics to measure skill in games. But the result is what many above this post have listed, you just don't feel like you are in control of your character a lot of the times. That's just not fun. I think the interplay of classes should be about positive things.... Like if I do A and my buddy does B that allows me to do C, which is really a powerful nuke or something that I wouldn't have been able to pull off alone. This is where the synergy of "coordinated play" becomes a positive. Go see GW2 hype to see what I'm talking about.

2.) Make character animations and graphical effects hold all the information we need in order to play:

But right now, "coordinated group play" means watching mods and timers and then perfectly timing CC in response to DR timers and "cast bars" and the like. It's made it to where watch mods and memorizing DR/CD timers has become the sin quo non of the game. I want it to be about "what's happening on the battlefield" not what's happening on a mod or a timer. The game itself should hold all the clues as to what's going on and what I should do if I were a good player. If my buddy does rain of fire on the ground let me shoot through it and set my arrows on fire. If my other buddy is casting some neat healing spell let his player animation show it and give me a clue to do something to keep him from being interrupted.

Change how the game works so that whether we are on vent or not, or whether we have 3rd party mods installed or not, good players will make the right moves because of what's happening on the screen in the gamespace itself not the UI.

A good example of this is the "moonglow effect" you get with balance druid "interrupt spell". I don't know what's its called but I do know that when I am standing in moonlight and I'm not able to cast, I better move. Again, it works on a lot of levels because it has an obvious graphical effect, you don't need a mod or timer to tell you how it works, and it's CC that I can actually counter by positional play. To me, it's a win win that makes the game better.

Contrast this to some forms of silence where the only way you know how or why you are silenced is by looking at your debuff icons. So uninspiring.

* more to come.
is anyone actually going to read these walls of words?

my suggestion: being able to trade honor for gold and guild rep

*Please add a team deathmatch so that people who just want to farm kills can queue for that, and people who want to do objectives won't have mid-farmers on their team*

Plus I'd love team deathmatch as an option because that's often what I'm in the mood to do.

Also, add extra incentive to defenders in bg's. Defending is boring, most people know that and don't want to do it. Games are lost, people are yelled at, team mates get frustrated because it's a thankless job. Maybe reward extra honor for defending....or cookies?
What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)

Searing totem targeting system. It targets random things half of the time and the second someone runs out of LoS(and before I drop down a new one) it spams its fireball at people applying DoTs to everyone and preventing them from being CC'd by certain classes.

What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

Twin peaks. LoS in BGs is great.

What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

The temporary removal of Ring of Valor. I wish it was permanent.

What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

Early season honor gear.

What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

BGs essentially revolving around PvE, relatively little LoS, bots, and low level bgs being so imbalanced.

What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

Dieing in openers to RMP/ rogue/dk/priest if I don't trinket cheap shot and wolf sprint away. Ring of Valor RNGpillars and PVE gear in arena is also annoying.

What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

A few classes have absurd amounts of cc, damage, survivability and single target lockdown while most of the classes don't even have nearly half of what they have. The sad part is that most of it is passive.

What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to?

Azshara crater sounds interesting so long as it's not infested with Bots 24/7.

Plz put rating requirement back on gear so that noobs have to l2p to get it and will actually have a reason (other than a pathetic increase in conquest cap) to keep queuing and improve. Almost all of the good to even semidecent players on my server have quit/xferred and none of these new players are improving in any way. I go to durotar and 95% of the people there only have 8 wins and their team will just be disbanded tuesday and remade.
Oh, and most people would love if you queued for random bg's within specific roles, just like in dungeons so that it's not auto-loss when the opposing team was lucky enough to get more healers.
I think everybody has brought up some great points about max level PvP, but I don't think lower level PvP has been given enough attention. I believe it is just as important to the over all feel of the game. Now, maybe I don't matter, preffering lower level xp-off PvP, but I may have some points of interest:

Xp-Off feature - I enjoy the level of competition provided through this, leaving out anybody who hasnt spent a near equal amount of time obtaining low level gear.

Class balance - Hunters, rogues, mages, paladins and priests control the bracket, and are the largest portion of played classes. Classes such as warlocks, shamans, druids and warriors are neglected due to imbalances and weaknesses. My shaman has a set with 250+ spell power, yet I heal for <200, and at a 3 second cast, while priests and paladins have flash heals, or instant heals doing more healing than my 3 second cast.

Racial Resistance - At low levels, 19 resist is a lot. This effects all casters, especially warlocks, shamans and druids, due to having mainly one source of damage. Shamans doing nature damage, against Worgens, Taurens and Nightelves end up doing about 30% less damage after enchants and such to cloaks. This is unreal, and leads to class imbalance as well.

Hunter damage and Mage damage. Survival hunters ticking off 30% of your health with Explosive Shot, not only an insant cast but able to use while moving, is unreal, this also goes for mages Arcane Barrage.
Racial Resistance - At low levels, 19 resist is a lot. This effects all casters, especially warlocks, shamans and druids, due to having mainly one source of damage. Shamans doing nature damage, against Worgens, Taurens and Nightelves end up doing about 30% less damage after enchants and such to cloaks. This is unreal, and leads to class imbalance as well.

And resistance buffs. I can't stress this enough.

Having two, three, four fear/DoT misses/resists in a row is just absurd. Then, after you finally do land a DoT it only ticks for 20 out of the 50 potential damage.
Bring back Arena Skirmishes! I cannot believe they removed these. Is it that difficult to maintain both War Games and Skirmishes? The only good that War Games has brought is allowing tournaments to be put together.

01/30/2012 12:35 PMPosted by Carzone
is anyone actually going to read these walls of words?


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