Cataclysm PVP Feedback

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01/30/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Msmojo
Oh, and most people would love if you queued for random bg's within specific roles, just like in dungeons so that it's not auto-loss when the opposing team was lucky enough to get more healers.

We need to convince Blizzard that matching numbers of healers won't hurt queue times. Blizzard is eager to dismiss any improvement to BG matchmaking on these grounds. They've even had CMs tell us that players like fast games more than good games. (It may even be true.)

Matching numbers of healers should be harmless because there's a lot of flexibility to make fast matches still. You can have 1 healer per side, or 2 per side, or 3, or 4. You can even have 2 vs. 3 or 3 vs. 4 without it being unreasonable. There's a lot of options and the queue can choose whichever works and makes a fast match.
As a bit of context-- I'm a very, very casual PvPer, and by my own admission I'm not very good at it. So my replies will be from a casual point of view. I play as frost and blood on this character, as the situation demands, and I have a second main, a holy paladin.

What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)

I hate, hate, hate, HATE being graveyard camped-- and I don't like being the camper, either. I understand that it's the nature of selecting teams by RNG-- there's a chance that one may completely overbalance the other, especially if, say, a group of 5 signs on for a 10 vs 10 BG and is working over Vent. But that should lead to a short match so the losers can try for a more balanced matchup, not to a long session of being famed repeatedly as the other team emotes rudely and slaughter you before you can touch them.

I also hate the absolute plague of trash talk and do report freely when needed, but it's both irritating and distracting, especially when the trash talkers are meter worshippers who think that having the highest damage/KBs is more important than the little things like guarding bases or killing the EFC instead of that poor mage in quest greens who thought PvP might be fun. It's just irritating to be the only one trying to do it right.

What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

I can't say I'm a fan of either of the new battlegrounds-- the Wildhammer one is just WSG with a river in the middle, and Battle For Gilneas somehow always feels one-sided-- it seems like 5 bases just works out better than three.

What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

I didn't arena before Cataclysm, and even now I'm on a 2s team with a ret paladin for points, so I haven't the slightest.

What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

I liked the addition of conquest points, and that you don't have to have a high arena rank to get the really good gear.

What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

Getting GY camped-- as previously noted-- is my main issue. The secondary one is that, with the large amount of battlegrounds and the fact that MoP may add up to three new ones, it also feels like the CtA weekends are too unevenly spread for low level alts, which are the ones I like to run on BG weekends. The problem is, they go in an order based on when they were introduced, which means there's a month of low level BGs on CtA every weekend, then a month of Wrath/Cata BGs that low levels can't participate in. And when AV comes up I feel almost as if I -must- run it as much as possible because its XP and honor is so efficient on its holiday and it only comes up once every 2 months; ironically, if it came more often I would feel less compelled to milk it for all it's worth. My suggestion would be to put two BGs on each weekend; rotate the classic BGs and EotS on one loop, and the Wrath and Cata ones on a second loop. So, say, one week you may have WSG and Isle of Conquest as the Call to Arms featured BGs, then the next you would have Arathi Basin and Strand of the Ancients to choose from.

What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

I don't play arena at a high enough level to have issues that aren't related to my own inexperience.

What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

My only issue that I have a suggestion for would be to make it so that, if you are not PvP flagged, that hitting an attack with nothing or a dead enemy targeted will NOT automatically target and attack a flagged player (and, in doing so, flag you) even if they are the closest target. I had this problem in Firelands when it first opened up, especially with my paladin (who was in offspec prot gear-- quest greens and a couple of 346 blues at best.) People would find someone whose gear wasn't that good, flag themselves and stand on whatever that person was trying to fight, hoping the person would accidentally hit them so they could massacre them. I play on a RP-PvE server for a reason, and it's not so I can accidentally flag myself while trying to do dailies because someone was standing on my target as it died.

What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to? (here is a summary of what is coming: )

The new BG modes sound fun. Honestly, I found the Cata ones disappointing because they were just an old BG on a new map, and-- in my experience-- Battle for Gilneas usually ends up a very one-sided fight. I think I've won it twice, over two 85s, in all of Cataclysm. The MoP ones are shiny and new and different.
•What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

3.) Lack of a good "beginning, middle, and end" to fights:

I think there's too much "burst" and "opening" damage in some cases. If no healer is around, then it seems like the "guy coming out stealth" or the guy who can CC you and get you down by 30% at the start has a clear, almost unrecoverable advantage. I think encounters should be more more give and take. On the other hand, there's still situations where you can't even scratch through the bubbles and shield effects on some healers/players.

To me, encounters involve a good begining, middle, end. Players engage, they dance, and someone dies. Something that is satisfying when you win but also gives you the opportunity to say "I should have done X differently" if you lost.

4.) Lack of a good "back and forth" when it comes to the kiting and pursuit classes:

It seems like right now it's almost an all or none phenomenon. Either one guy "always gets away" or can "never get away" depending on the matchup. You could say "the game is not balanced 1v1" but that's just a cop-out. A lot of this game involves 1v1 encounters, whether intended or not. When one class always holds the cards over another, and the deck is stacked, it leads to burnout. Optimally, "time on target" needs to be balanced for both the kiting and the pursuing classes.

* again, text is becoming jumpy. see next post.

What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)
Lack of income for repairs, gems and enchants. Lack of options for finding partners in arena and RBGs from cross servers which results in having to pay to transfer to a high populated realm.
What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?
Rated Battlegrounds, the reintroduction of more titles and participation based mounts (rather than only 0.5% of the participants getting a cool mount)

What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?
I actually have nothing nice to say about Cata arenas as almost nothing of any substance has been changed due to the focus made on RBGs all expansion long. Making gear available to everyone was a good way to boost participation all round.

What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?
Rated Battlegrounds.

What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?
No battlegrounds are removed or added each season. It would be better if it was like SC2 where maps cycle throughout the seasons. Battlegrounds like Gilneas promote turtle strats to win and are too easy to defend.

What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?
MMR exploiting, which has still not been fixed completely. Lack of meaningful changes added in throughout the expansion. Zero content added into arena this expansion. Only having 1 of each bracket after Blizzard has clearly stated they balance around 3v3 (why should we be forced to play 2 unbalanced brackets?). 2v2 becoming a virtually unplayable bracket for healers.

What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?
Very little content has been added into Cata around PvP when compared to the huge amount of content added for both casual and hardcore raiders. Class balance is still a concern and with a complete overhaul of talents it is clear that with the resources available next expansion is probably going to have similar problems. Changing the talents, once again, is a huge oversight in my opinion and fails to address the problems that already exist in PvP by creating new ones.
PvE gear has once again reigned supreme in the final tier of an expansion with items such as Vial of Shadows being obviously stupid in PvP it makes me wonder how much thought actually goes into PvP.
Lack of support from Blizzard has led to play run tournaments that are of a higher entertainment value than Blizzcon.
Almost no world PvP exists in this expansion due to a focus on instanced game play for both PvE and PvP.

What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to? (here is a summary of what is coming: )
I see a lot of this:

We are hoping to release....
Potentially releasing...

The only way PvP has a hope of being playable next expansion is if they actually release the content they talk about and LISTEN to player feedback in open beta. During Cata beta there was no access to cap level arena or much PvP at all. This can't happen again.

If there is a genuine focus on world PvP I think it could make this game a lot better.

On a final note, DMF Arena was probably the best PvP addition this whole expansion and I can only use it 1 week a month. Go figure.
In my mind the #1 biggest thing that ruins world pvp in the game atm is Guards, i was in the storm peaks and about 40 yards from K3 i attack a druid of the same level going for the lunar elder. What i got was a K3 bruiser who hit me for 174k non crit and insta death. Does anyone else see the problem with that?

- Give hunters better survivability against dot classes. (FIXED with new Deterrence change)
- Instant CC is way too easy.
- Front end damage is bordering on too-high, while sustained damage (especially while getting trained) may be kind of low. More applicable to MM and BM.

The Deterrence change does not even come close to fixing Hunter survivability against DoT classes. Not even close to being sort of close.
I can't stand vehicle fights and I especially can't stand how the vehicles don't scale with gear. IoC is a miserable bg, I hate it. I didn't spend all my time earning, enchanting, gemming pvp gear to get into a demolisher to break down a wall. My pvp abilities let me fight against all the slows rogues / mages / dk's put out but the stupid demo has nothing. Hate. Hate so much.

I love adding conquest to random bg victories, but I would appreciate maybe 5 or 10 conquest points for a loss. The large majority of my bg's are losses, so I gear up slowly while my adversaries wins keep them winning. Giving me 5 conquest points per loss would let me eventually gear up to escape the disparity.

Loss of control of you character has been in the game since the beginning so I understand it can't be taken out, but please, put in diminishing returns. If a rogue or mage, for example, reduces 80% of my health it should break me out of their cc. I enjoy playing this game, but loss of control of my character from full health to nothing just leaves me looking for other games to play.

I put in so much effort to win bg's I'm put in, I especially despise how another individual who puts NO effort can ruin my gaming experience. Having someone in WotLK pve greens be in my bg saying "if you don't like it, leave" is galling. They have every right to be in a bg as do I, but why not put in matchmaking based on resilience, as you have gearscore for heroics. I should be put in a bg with approximately equal foes and the fresh 80 wearing heirlooms should likewise be put in a bg with their peers.

Bots. I want to play this game, not work for Blizzard, submitting clunky tickets on a bot. Which goes into a black hole. Bots have been infesting bg's from vanilla to this morning so I have no impression that they're being dealt with. Again, every bot I see regardless of it being on my team or the opposition makes me look for other games to play.

Come up with a improvement on getting afk'ers removed from a bg. I report afk'ers in practically every match I'm in, it's rampant whether it's a bot or a player that gives up when an initial rush fails. I've also been in a match, Arathi Basin to be precise, where I capped the mine at the start of the match and saw no combat while guarding it. I got reported as afk for not having done any damage / healing and was removed. That stuck in my craw.

The last thing that really sticks out in my mind are the random bg premades. Shouldn't premade groups of people from the same server / guild be in rated bg's? And yet I constantly come up against them in random bg's where my team mates, upon seeing this, give up before the game starts. Literally. Won't even leave the spawn area when they see they're up against a premade. Yes, I've been in groups that have beaten premades but that's not the point, if you've ever been in this situation you'll know what I'm talking about.
5.) PvE balance screwing up PvP balance and vice versa:

It is ARROGANT of Blizzard to think they can balance PvE and PvP using the same ruleset. As one forum poster recently said, you cannot fully balance abilities designed to take down 100,000,000 HP bosses to be balanced when used against 150K health players. When he said that, it just became crystal clear to me. In the same vein, you can't balance healing and mitigation for PvP with the same ruleset that involves the healing and mitigation for bosses either.

Blizz, I will have to admit, has done a pretty good job of getting things somewhere in line, but overall it is FOLLY to keep this "same ruleset for PvE and PvP". It impossible and that's why I think it's arrogant to persist in saying they can pull it off. They never have, and never will.

Furthermore, even though Blizzard says it doesn't have two rule sets, they did implement some aspects of a 2 ruleset feature in a clumsy and backhanded way. First off, resilience is a backhanded way of doing it and secondly ad hoc removal of thinks like "vengeance in pvp" is another way they are going to do it. CC also operates like this, where 1min cc in pve, becomes 8secs in pvp.

Just be honest with yourselves and the player base. Put all your chips in the pile, make two rulesets, and approach each and every skill in the game with a "PvE" behavior" and a "PvP" behavior so that you don't have to resort to dull tools such as "resilience" that affect everything in a directed and unintelligent way or make it so that CC have blanket "one size fits all" timers.

It would have been better if every skill, whether damage or healing or otherwise, had its own custom effect for pvp so that things would act "as intended" in pvp and could be adjusted and tweaked on the fly without hurting pve.

This would also allow for the FREEDOM of the pvp dev team and the pve dev teams to take their aspect of the game in the direction they want without borking the other half of the design team's intents.

I know if I was the "pvp guy" at Blizz and I wanted to make Collosus Smash have a specific pvp only effect in order to enhance the warrior toolkit in pvp without making it overpowered, I would want to do that without having to see how that would screw up the raid balance team.

It seems like such a change would be full of so much win-win it boggles me that blizz hasn't done this full stop by now.

Arenanet has specifically stated they will seperate pve and pve functions in GW2, so I know it's doable buy a company that obviously makes less money thant Blizz.

To just say "well, two rulesets would be too confusing" is just not a compelling argument. Yes, it would take some getting used to, but that's what tooltips are for. And to be honest, I'm pretty sure the pvper's and pve'ers would be able to understand that in pve ambush does X damage in pve but does Y damage in pvp or that rain of fire has one effect in pve but a different effect in pvp.

I really like what blizz has done to the hunter.I Cant wait to see what they do next.Its always soooo exciting.They keep making my class soooo strong and getting rid of dead weight like disengage.Thank god they havnt taken my raptor strike, i dont no what i would do if they nerfed that.Camo, there's an exciting ability,actually i would trade raptor stike, camo and wing clip to get disengage back. Blizz do you even play your own game?
01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

What I would like to see is something that makes Alterac Valley a little less boring. The atmosphere is just terrible and the design where we run around the opposing team is as well. If the two opposing trains could run into each other and very few actually make it past the opposing force, that'd be neat.

As far as new battlegrounds go, I hear there's a "Payload" type battleground being implemented. If there isn't and this is just rumour, perhaps it would be best if it were more than rumour? :D

What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

Daily quests to go out and attack/defend towns and outposts that reward conquest points.

What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

The fact that if you don't have Crusader Aura at the start of Battle for Gilneas, you've pretty much lost unless your team is leagues above the other.

What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

Legendary items in PvP and ridiculously powerful trinkets in PvP. I know you guys want to have some sort of cross-over, and that's fine. Just keep the things that do 60k damage in a single attack out of PvP, we're not raid bosses.

My biggest, most top issue is the fact that PvP and PvE use the same damage/healing calculations, but I'm sure this is something you don't want to change.
I haven't been playing WoW for a couple months, because the PVP frankly has me utterly depressed. I'm not a bad PVPer (regularly got around 2.2k with friends on an RP server, ain't too shabby), but I'm not the best. So take it with a grain of salt.

I was reading this thread about resetting cooldowns on the EU forums:

I've long had a strong distaste for cooldown resetting in PVP and I'll tell you why. In PVP, knowing when and where to use your cooldowns is important. However as a class with a cooldown reset, you can make mistakes that other classes can't and recover. It has always felt to me, regardless of the current pvp power level of these classes, that cooldown resets should not exist in pvp.

The whole point of a cooldown is to preserve a relative power of the ability against how often you should be able to use that ability, a cooldown reset ignores this and allows you to use cooldowns at a chain gun rate in some situations that makes it feel like there is no disadvantage to using cooldowns at the wrong time.

It basically comes down to....a cooldown should be the cooldown. If I'm in a smokebomb, and I trinket, I should be able to know I won't have to deal with smokebomb for a while. Not have it prepped and immediately kidney shot into another smokebomb at half health with no trinket down. That's not skill, that's skill-less.

I mean, this is all part of that greater topic of arms race between classes. What's next? An ability that resets the cooldown on abilities that reset cooldowns in case you use your cooldown reset at the wrong time?

If the classes need buffs after removing cooldown resets, by all means buff them to high heavens again like always seems to happen, every season, for some "mysterious" reason. But cooldown resets are the single most annoying thing in PVP. A cooldown should be a cooldown, it is for the rest of us mere mortal classes in arena. Why not them? The whole core of the PVP system is designed around trading cooldowns, timing cooldowns, and countering cooldowns. You're at a disadvantage before you even start because you have no idea WHEN those cooldowns will be reset. If I get all of a rogues defensive cd's on cooldown, finally getting a kill window....I shouldn't have to worry about prep returning any of those cooldowns, they used them, I outplayed them, they are gonna die if their teammates don't help.

That's my gripe about cooldown resets. Now I'll be going back to not playing this game again until some sense of sanity is returned to PVP.
I've had a love/hate relationship with PvP for years. Here are my suggestions in relation to the standard years-old debates:

  • Bots: Implement this anti-bot technology: allow any single player to report another player as a bot, at which point the reported player has 30 seconds to respond to a very simple click-based captcha. I'm talking "click on the picture of a cat" type high technology here. To avoid abuse, once proven, a player cannot be reported again for a period of time.

  • iLevel: Make PvP gear have a lower iLevel than PvE gear. Only PvEers care about iLevel due to built-in dungeon mechanics, and PvPers couldn't care less about iLevel as long as they're in the latest gear. This makes PvP gear less useful for dodging PvE requirements. It also has the effect of lowering healing stats in PvP.

  • Resilience: Make resilience grant additional damage against player targets in addition to reducing incoming damage from player targets, and stack a higher percentage of overall resilience on the most abused PvE slots (weapons and trinkets). This corrects for the lower iLevel of PvP gear as well as reducing the effectiveness of end-game PvE gear in PvP.

  • Enchants: As an alternative to the resilience suggestion above, provide honor- and conquest-purchasable enchants/gems that only work on PvP armor and weapons. These enchants can be very strong to make up for lower PvP iLevel, but only work on PvP gear and against player targets. This also goes a long way to dealing with the many complaints about how expensive or impossible it is to PvP without also engaging in PvE.

  • Class Abilities: Please, for the love of everything holy, start differentiating class abilities when used in PvP versus PvE. I'm so sad that several classes have lost intrinsic flavor due to PvP balance corrections.

Thanks for listening, and I'm looking forward to Mist.

  • What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)

  • Being a good healer isn't good enought anymore, you are only as good as how well your teams makes can peel for you.
    Also, the fact that healers have to use a pve trinket in arena to stay competitive. Every dps i know used two trinkets with resil, where healers have to use one pvp trinket with resil and one pve trinket with spirit or int or both.

  • What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

  • Another CTF map was great, dont see the point of the bend in the map but whatever.

  • What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

  • No bloodlust in arena was pretty nice.

  • What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

  • Rated battlegrounds was a nice alternative to getting points from arena.

  • What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

  • Gilneas is terrible in the fact it is nearly impossible to come back from after a 2 cap.

  • What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

  • Interrupts, especially mage lock out, are too long for the amount of damage that can be put out in that amount of time.

  • What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

  • Playing all four healers, the top issue I have is the amount of self healing by dps classes vs the amount of damage out put by healers. Ret paladin off healing is ridiculous, Recuperate was an insanely stupid spell to give rogues when they already have cloak. Give them an ability that reduces damage, not a heal. If youre going to give that much selfhealing to dps classes, then give some dps to healers, currently priest is the only healer with decent damage. Why was there so much love for feral druids this expansion but no love for Resto Druids? Why is the defensive cooldown for resto druids, tree form, one minute longer than every other classes offensive cooldowns/pvp trinkets?
    Will start out by saying I am looking forward to a lot of changes in MoP and I truly hope PvP gets reworked a bit.

    as for some basic feedback:

    In terms of Balance I don't think it"s in a very good place, I feel there are too many interrupts in the game. Some things like Death Gripping aura mastery, inner focus, or silencing a death knight while he is stunned for no IBF is just a bit much. Also Smoke bomb seems out of control, it is game changing in both RBGs and Arena and it is just too overpowered (maybe remove it from prep).

    But enough of that lets move on to what was good.

    Twin Peaks and Battle for Gilneas are great bgs, the environments are nice in both and I find ctf maps to be fun (and I know a lot of players will agree), and Gilneas is a nice change from AB. I would actually rather see some work done to a map like AB also to maybe make it a bit faster more like Gilneas.

    I liked the changes to Ring of Valor with the elevator removal, although there are still plenty of bugs in there. Such as pets getting stuck on pillars and follow not bringing them back to you. This can be particularly annoying for UH dks, locks and hunters and game changing at times.

    I liked the introduction of Rated Battlegrounds, but I can't say I enjoyed the direction Blizzard went with them, they seem too forced and that deterred some people away from arena.

    My top issue with Cata arena and Rbgs is smoke bomb. I think a lot of people can agree that it is a bit too game changing, perhaps if it was removed from Prep it would be tolerable but in its current state along with rogues damage output during dance it is too much.

    *As for General PvP in Cata I was rather disappointed with the removal of rating requirements (still), I think if at least some rating requirements came back it would encourage more PvP and make it a bit more competitive again. It may also remove the funnel that is currently around 2000-2200 rating in the 3v3 bracket currently and allow teams to get back to their former glories. I really think this has more importance than you guys see, too many people are getting too good of gear with just honor and getting minimum points each week, and without being rude a lot of these people are bad. But they are gear capped (minus 2200 weapon), and that just isn't fun. *

    I have been 2400+ on multiple characters and really feel like my opinions should hold some weight. My last points were really most important to me and I would love to see rating requirements come back, I believe it would do wonders. Thanks

    Short: Apply 'Not useable in Rated Arena/Battleground' to Legendary weapons and PvE trinkets.

    PvE trinkets and Legendaries add nothing to WoW's PvP except for a small few yet hurts the large majority, while removing them from PvP hurts no one.

    Long version:

    When people queue for a rated arena or battle ground, most just want to prove their skill over the opponent. I'm sure it is great fun for people with the current expansion legendary weapon and OP trinket to melt face, but most of your PvP players do not. Heck most of your PvE players don't either. What business do they have being in competition? What does that prove other than you have more time to raid when you beat someone in equal gear (minus the legendary weapon + trinket combo)? Why is that a competition?

    The purest form of PvP are the tournaments. Everyone gets access to the same gear. Why do none of the tournaments include a 3 month build up period to grind out trinket drops and lengendaries? (besides the obvious of a 3 month tournament :P) Why don't they just allow everyone to purchase PvE trinkets + lengendaries?

    You could make the argument that 2200 weapons shouldn't require the rating either and allow everyone to be equal letting skill determine the winner. However this is an mmo and there needs to be some incentive (and all the dragon killers hate the welfare epics) so there is a PvP reward for doing well in PvP. Legendaries and heroic trinkets do not reward PvP, they harm PvP players who do not PvE because of just how ridiculously good they always are.

    Wrath had the problem
    TBC had the problem
    Vanilla would have had the problem if resilience was in the game, however back then people only knew that more dps is better (and there was no rated anythings)

    If someone wants to swap out some rings or leg armor whatever for PvE gear, then fine that's their call to lose resilience for a little extra dps. It's a pretty clear loss and most wouldnt do it. Neither legendaries or crazy trinket proc are not 'little extra dps'

    These problems wouldn't exist and every PvP players would be happy as a clam if lengendaries and PvE trinkets got the 'Not useable in Rated Arena/Battlegrounds' Maybe a few dragon killers would cry that they couldnt use their gear in rateds, but that is such a small fraction of the population, no one would (or should) care about their cries.

    Obviously it is too late to do this to players now as many have their staff/daggers/trinkets or are on their way and you are taking action to reduce the trinket burst, so thats something. But...if you had fixed this back in TBC after the glaive debacle, wrath's shadowmourne wouldnt have happened, cataclysm's staff and daggers wouldnt be happening. PvPrs would stop raiding just to get their trinket + legendary. None of this would be happening and no one would be complaining because they know up front that thier PvE rewards would not be useable in PvP

    The only reason people would be crying is because they aren't good enough to reach 2200 and get better weapons. And that is a cry we can all live with.
    Right now, in order to have an actual PVP experience which doesn't boil down to "Someone looks at me and I die", you need a minimum of 3000 resilience. That's a lot of PVP gear. On top of that, melee classes, which are extremely dependent on their weapon for their viability, require the use of nothing less than a ruthless weapon in order to be competitive. Now, let's do some math:

    Assume you win every single BG you go in, all the time, forever. In ten minutes, each time. You get around 350 honor per BG. Now, in order to get a full PVP set, you need to farm 26850 honor. Now, divided by 350 honor, that's 76 BG victories. 10 minutes pet victory = 760 minutes = 12 hours 40 minutes.

    Now, understand this. If you were to instantly get queued, never have to wait for the BG to start (no preparation time), always win and never take more than ten minutes to win, it would still take you over twelve hours and a half of BGing to get a full honor set. The truth is, adding in the farming you have to do to buy gems and enchants and gold for repairs and the queue time and the prep time and the fact that you sometimes get 20 minute matches and the fact that you don't always win, the true game time is closer to 40 hours.

    40 hours to be able to actually experience PVP as anything more than dying in two seconds when someone looks at you is a damn long time, and there's no reason for it to be. Not only is this ridiculously excessive, it's not even fair. On this paladin, I have a nearly full PVE set after less than 10 hours of dungeons and raids, and that's despite the fact that I converted my justice points into honor and valor points into conquest points. And while I was getting that set, I wasn't wiping over and over and over and over again. I could actually experience PVE, it's just that my gear wasn't as good.

    I understand that gear can't just be handed out for free, but there's certainly a middle ground somewhere between "mail a full PVP set to the character at level 85" and "spend 40 hours getting pounded into the ground before actually enjoying the PVP scene".

    And blizz wonders why there are so many bots.

    To be fair though, you can buy/make the crafted set, which is comparable to the pve gear that you'd get from dungeons. If you make the effort on all three fronts of obtaining crafted gear, grinding honor, and doing weekly arena "for points", you will probably have a pretty decent set in 10 hours (certainly good enough to survive being "looked at").
    The fact that this thread is being watched and brought to devs is both nice to hear and also amazing ridiculous. Many of the current arena issues (and those last season) are mentioned 65 jillion times in WoW, MMO, and AJ forums. Do devs really need to rely on a thread like this to come to the remarkable conclusion that "hey, maybe frost mastery is too good" or "PvE trinkets cause balance issues - esp with humans"? It's pretty damn disheartening if they are *that* out of touch with the game.

    Anyway, whatever.

    Short-term: Make trinkets/Legendaries unusable in arena (this from a guy using both btw), tone down mage mastery or ice lance dmg, tweak rogue dmg and/or survivability, and buff resilience effectiveness by 5-10%.

    Long-term: Tone interrupts way down, put higher risk/reward into casting actual spells (think lance vs FB), reduce the amount of instant-cast CC in the game. Give 2v2 some more attention - even if it doesn't reward titles, some of those games are just dumb. Current timer is insane. Think creatively to create more compelling matches - try to match-make double melee vs. other double melee, or caster/melee vs caster/melee etc. Balance dmg/healing/regen so that double healer and/or triple dps teams are non-viable.
    I like Battle of Gilneas because it's essentially a hotter, faster AB, but Twink Peaks is just a boring WSG (which is the oldest BG) clone.

    Isle of Conquest is not a cata feature, but I have to mention that I dislike it, because its less about PVP and more VvW (Vehicles versus Walls)

    Also, please have the combat text say *who* has taken graveyards, like it says who has taken flags.

    Its very annoying to have someone anonymously take a graveyard that is actually detrimental to your cause like in SOTA or sometimes in AV, and not be able to educate the person, or identify someone who did it just to grief their own side, like you can for other objectives. You may not want people being raked over the coals, but it shouldn't just be anonymous.

    Like someone else says, please build in timers for BG objectives in all BG's. People shouldn't need a mod to track these things.

    I would really like to see Rated BG's and regular BG's fused so solo players can play in a BG and get a rating of some sort, and get matched better. It would be very cool for all the people that top meters to migrate to a BG matchup filled with people that topped meters in earlier BG's, or some such... or a BG filled with only people that had very high amount of PVP iLVL or HK's or some such.

    Can you imagine getting a random matchup filled with 19 other people that had recently been in the top 25-50% in win%, healing, damage, objectives, etc?

    PS. It may not be super fair that humans can run with two trinkets, everyone should be given the ability to clear status effects every two minutes and we should just be done with it. This allows more level field, but also, allows designers to make cool PVP battlemaster style trinkets that everyone can use x2.
    01/30/2012 01:44 PMPosted by Gunny


    Thank you.

    The realy question being is anyone going to actually do anything with it?

    I read the news every day, but I can't and don't solve the world's problems, so just reading something doesn't really mean much. Can someone actually address some of these issues? Let us know if any changes are going to be made prior to MoP or if we should just hang up our hats now?

    Exactly what I thought. Words mean nothing until they are solidified into a patch, rolled out onto the public realms, and the game feels better for everyone. Nobody likes having their class nerfed, or wants to feel useless in certain aspects of the game. But that's a reality for people who want to play their character they've been with since vanilla but suddenly is nothing but left over patch notes.

    The community wants change, so when are we going to get it? 4.3.2? I don't see anything being changed in that patch. Looks like they're listening, but the thing is they're not doing.

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