Cataclysm PVP Feedback

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01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)

my biggest QoL issue is how certain classes can exploit maps to thier advantage more readily than others. Z-axis abuse, pillar "hugging", terrain obstacles, etc. This tends to give much more advantage to the classes deigned to be "slippery" over the classes designed to catch them.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

I liked the addition of RBG in concept as a means for people to enjoy pvp in a different setting, with goals and objectives stemming away from "kill that guy".

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like

There were no arena changes, in my mind, significant enough for me to like.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like

The addition of RBG's, and faster pace of tol barad compared to other past pvp zones.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

As with arena, there is too much burden to entry for new players in mid-season RBG's. Anyone without sufficient gear simply gets crushed, regardless of class/spec.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

Cata really didnt address any long standing arena imbalance in my opinion, and in fact may have made things worse. Because PvP isnt balanced 1v1, players still feel the need to run specific comps as a means to success.

01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

The expansion really failed to deliver on its promise of slower paced, more thoughtful pvp. Heals are still far too powerful, utilities are either too powerful or too cumbersome in group settings, damage is still very high for some classes, and because HP's and armor were brought closer together, there is greater disadvantage to physical damage dealers as opposed to spell damage dealers. There is also far too much proliferation of high end pve gear in pvp, particularly with both legendaries going to the same role (damage) for what many would agree would be the most overpowered specs over all pvp this expansion. Its great that pve gear can be used as entry into pvp - its not so great when that can be abused however. IMO, there should be a personal rating limit for which pve gear should be barred from use - let skill and teamplay determine winners, not incessant grinding and overpowered mechanics. For example, bar the use of pve trinkets above 1800, and weapons above 2000.
What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues?

Finding players

What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?


What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

Ring of Valor has quite of few issues with it currently, one of the biggest effecting warriors and other classes with charges. If a target is standing on a pillar that's lowered it will not allow you to charge them, it's been around for as long as I remember and I have yet to see a blue post acknowledging it.

What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

Classes with an abundance of CC and survivability compared to others that are more centered on pure damage do less damage/burst and have a way harder time staying alive. I realize that it's partly due to PvE balancing as well but, there should atleast be a way to move around this issue, like design abilities to have different affects on players then they do on mobs. It could help to fix any class pvp balancing problems.

What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?


What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

Lack of balance with some classes

What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

Balance - Good players can lose to worse players based on class alone. There's other factors that can help a player lose to someone worse other than just class though.
I know Blizzard has mentioned this once or twice in passing before without realizing the significance of it, but they've really gone too far in the arms races of various tools in PvP.

Instant casts vs interrupts, gap closers vs gap creaters, damage cooldowns vs defensive cooldowns, etc. When one side gets an ability, the other side gets another to match it which leads to a lot of problems.

They've also seriously missed on the number balancing which makes PvP feel really awkward. There are points where damage seems so insanely high, and other points where it feels impossible to land a kill. Resilience is reducing player damage by over 40% right now which is crazy to think about how far they were off on the numbers between PvE and PvP as well.

If I could fit it all into one post I could go into great detail, but to be brief I'll just say they need to take a hard look at top-level TBC arena videos and get back to some of those foundations (obviously ignoring specific class balance).

But for now, off the top of my head:

-Damage and healing should steadily move a health bar in either direction, not bounce it up and down wildly. Multiple things causing this, like global 200% crits, every class being able to spam abilities now rather than having to wait for white attacks/cooldowns, etc.

-Casters should actually have to cast. As more classes have gotten interrupts, Blizzard has made it so healers/caster dps can get by largely with instant and uncounterable spells. If you have to increase the cooldowns on both interrupts and instant casts, so be it, but casting needs to be the primary source of dps and heals for "cast"ers.

-Mana should be a finite resource. Mana classes very rarely go oom in Cata, and when they do, it doesn't mean much due to high regen/low mana costs. Too many times have I seen oom healers keep their teams up as if they were at 100%. I know you tried to do it this expansion, but you underestimated gear scaling. Make mana matter again. And delete mana burn in the process.

-Players should actually have to walk places for periods, not get everywhere through the 100 different "blink" spells. It used to be just intercept and blink, but over the years there are seemingly countless different blink abilities to get you to or away from a target. This is a good example of where the arms race between classes, plus careless homogenization, have made arena feel silly.

-Players should have to press buttons to apply slows/snares. Sometimes it feels like there is an aura when you zone into arena that says -70% movement speed due to all the auto-applied slows. This is largely why warriors cannot stay on a target.

-There needs to be less aoe healing. Right now with so much random aoe healing, it makes intended splash damage useless and promotes tunneling one target for extensive periods. It used to be you could purposely get a secondary target low while on a main target, then have the option to swap to the second target while he's dipping to create pressure. With so much aoe healing, only your primary target ever gets low in most situations. Arena has become purely about single-target damage due to aoe healing.

-There also needs to be a lot less self-healing from dps classes. I know self-healing is nice for leveling and soloing and PvE, but in arena it's way over the top for some classes. They need to be toned down significantly.
I'll speak mainly about my class since it's the only one I really play consistently:

1.) Destruction is completely useless in PvP. Change this, please. The days of "Well only this spec is viable in PvP" is gone outside of a very few specific instances (Destro Locks, Boomkins, ect). There are multiple ways in which this can be fixed:

  • a.) Make Conflag do 100% of Immolation's damage duration again. With how lulzy resilience completely neuters the entire point of Destruction (Which is random periods of high damage with downtime due to casting vs the consistent damage-over-time of Affliction), the whole reason why Conflag was reduced is basically null and void.

    b.) Give Destruction the talent/passive ability that Elemental shamans have now in Lava Flows. People dispelling Flame Shock is the EXACT same situation as when people dispel Immolation. Either give Warlocks increased haste for X seconds after Immolation is dispelled and/or make Incinerate do as much damage AS IF Immolation was on the target (If dispelled) for X seconds with a minute or so cooldown so we don't spend 40% of our time simply reapplying Immolation so we can get Conflag off before it's dispelled again.

    c.) Make Chaos Bolt actually useful. Since the idea of dispelling something as a hard choice was thrown out the window, it's extremely unlikely that an actual decent healer will let Immolation just tick away on themselves or another target long enough for us to Conflag AND Chaos Bolt the target. I'd even suggest making Chaos Bolt identical to Lava Burst in that if Immolation is on the target, it auto crits.

    d.) As stated before, Resilience really neuters the entire point of the spec for burst (Which I can understand the use for, but it's just gone too far), so either scale it back some or make Destruction spells do a bit more damage (And I'm not talking about Mastery just making fire spells to more damage, because the improvement is negligible).

  • 2.) Either give us back Mana Drain or remove Mana Burn. If I recall correctly, the entire reason that Mana Drain was removed from our class was because you did not like the idea of draining an opponents mana when your theory was still that managing mana was an actual skill. Yet you've let Priests keep an ability that is not only better than Mana Drain in activation (Cast time vs channeled), but also in it's effectiveness (You not only have a mana drain, but also a damage component. It may be negligible in terms of damage, but it's not helping the case of "We did not like the idea of an opponent draining mana).

    3.) Please, for the love of god, give Warlocks SOME type of defense against Melee. I know that Rogues are supposedly our counter class, but it goes far beyond that. We stand absolutely no chance no matter how skilled we are versus a Rogue. The determining factor on if we stand against a Rogue is how bad they are at their own class, and that makes absolutely no sense to me. Give us some kind of Barkskin or defensive cooldown we can blow (And Sacrifice does not count, nobody uses Voidwalkers in PvP). Demonic Circle is a joke, especially when Rogues perma slow us by 70% by simply autoattacking with a poison buff on. The same can be applied to Feral Druids and Frost Death Knights.

    4.) Change Demon Soul's affect for the Succubus to Incinerate being buffed instead of Shadow Bolt. Nobody uses the Succubus if they are casting Shadow Bolt as their main nuke (Affliction always uses Felhunter and Demonlogy always uses the Felguard), only Destruction Warlocks use her. Right now Demon soul is completely useless for Destruction Warlocks in PvP, because the Imp is never used, ever. I got it, he's used for PvE, that's fine, but simply make the Succubus the pet that is buffed for Destruction Warlocks for PvP.

    5.) I know Destruction isn't the insta-cast spec of Warlocks, but we need something to combat how utterly insane interrupts cripple the Destruction spec. I don't know what you could add to fix it, but something needs to be done.

    tl;dr: Make Destruction viable for more than 1 season (Whereupon you then just nerf it into the ground because it was popular)
    01/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Eldacar
    What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to? (here is a summary of what is coming: )

    I'm going to reverse this and state what it is I am concerned about from the Mists preview. It feels as if the talents are bringing PvP back to the 'arms race' that was supposed to be scaled back this expansion. This is becoming particularly evident in the realm of mobility, specifically:

    On the mobility side,

    - Shamans being unsnareable in Ghost Wolf form
    - Ferals being given Disentanglement as an option when it was deliberately taken away earlier this expansion, in addition to Tireless Pursuit
    - Warriors getting a +20% damage, snare/root-immune, and extra Rage CD that has no counter (Bladestorm can be disarmed)
    - Veneration and Windwalk Totem are shaping up to be AE snare removals (Windwalk is decidedly superior)
    - Rogues have the option of Burst of Speed for near-permanent snare immunity if they choose
    - Priests can choose the Phantasm talent
    - Hunters can choose the Black Ice talent
    - All Mages can choose the Blazing Speed talent

    On the snare side on it,

    - Retribution is getting Seal of Justice and all Paladin specs the option of Burden of Guilt
    - Frozen Power is becoming available to all Shaman specs
    - Warbringer can cause a Warrior's Charge to root for 5 seconds
    - Chilblains will be available to all DK specs
    - Remorseless Winter is another DK snare
    - Druids of all specs can choose Faerie Swarm, Typhoon, Mass Entanglement
    - Warriors will have access to the Cripple talent

    All of these are in addition to abilities currently in the game, only a few of which appear to be gone (Shattered Barrier and Desecration were the ones I noticed missing).

    I'm not trying to delve too deeply into balance issues, but I am using those examples to illustrate my point about the arms race between snares and snare immunity that appears to be taking place. The ease that these snares are applied and the relative ease of using counter-snares seems to be ratcheting up the PvP arms race significantly. Perhaps I feel the most left behind by this change because all of a Paladin's counter-snares can be removed with offensive dispels (my guess is Veneration, too), and Acts of Sacrifice is getting gimped because of the impending Cleanse CD.

    I feel like applying and removing snares is something that should require meaningful decisions, resource costs, and possibly cool downs, not spamming a button or two, or even picking a talent that makes you immune to them or trivializes them greatly. What good is Burden of Guilt if used on a Shaman who is running away in Impoved Ghost Wolf form? There is no counter for a talent like that! Not that I enjoy counter-counters like dispelling Freedom but the fact is they are part of the game and remain part of the game if you look at the 5.0 Paladin talent tree but other classes are largely immune to counter-counters. Is that balanced? The ease that opponents will counter snares seem to weaken the existing and new ones, especially ones that require a talent choice.

    Mists is shaping up to be an environment where an overabundance of snares are flying around but then most classes can just shrug them off. Freedom was deemed too powerful to be immune to offensive dispels but then I see other classes getting similar effects that cannot be dispelled. I feel like, in order to make the new talent choices meaningful and powerful, there should be a serious look at how snares, roots, and countering them works, instead of just scattering more snares and counter-snares around.
    Here are my personal issues with Cata PvP (from a BG point of view)

    1. stun locking someone (with 4.3k resil) and dpsing them down from 100%-0% within that timeframe is unacceptable. (amount of rogue cc + damage output needs tuning, maybe had a something to do with Vial of Shadows + legendaries in some cases, but certainly not all)

    2. blood dk self heal/dps was unacceptable, luckily there is a fix for that.

    3. the amount of cc's in the game is unacceptable. every expansion, more cc's are introduced and none are removed.

    4. pvp healing to damage output is not balanced. a better geared/ equally skilled dpser should be able to out damage the healing of a lesser geared/ equally skilled healer and that is not the case in Cata PvP (probably due to the effect of resilience lowering dps significantly where as healing is untouched).

    5. warriors have been nerfed to the point of not being viable in high rated PvP encounters. this is due to a severe lack of warrior mobility and burst dps. Arms was given Lambs to the Slaughter to reduce burst, then CS was nerfed to 50% armor penetration, again to reduce burst. One of those nerfs was appropriate, but both nerfs combined was way over the top. The lack of mobility comes from lack of ability to break cc (probably due to the ridiculous amount of cc in the game) and the lack of ability to remain within melee range of a target.

    I understand balance can be tough, but some things are so far out of balance that it has hurt the PvP community as a result. Please

    Here is what I liked about Cata PvP

    1. I really enjoy the variety of PvP maps to play, keeps things fresh for the most part.

    2. The majority of classes have been balanced reasonably well for PvP.

    3. The Honor/Conquest system is much better this expansion.

    4. Resilience seems to be tuned properly this expansion.

    •What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)
    -Gear level difference of a BG. A team of all Cataclystic gear vs Quest greeners does not turn out well. Also starting to get PvP gear. Going into BGs with 0 resil and PvE gear is a total turn off from PvPing.

    •What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?
    -Twin Peaks is fun for me.

    •What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

    •What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?
    -Nothing I can think of off the top of my head.

    •What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?
    Again, gear level of all the players. Top players vs Quest greens. No way to get a decent PvP set without getting farmed for days.

    •What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?
    Don't do much Arena yet.

    •What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?
    Gearing up with 0 resil. Getting farmed for days :p

    •What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to?
    Hopeing for more world PvP.

    1. In-Game timers instead of DBM timers would be nice. Not that I hate DBM timers, I just feel that something like this should already be in game. Vehicular combat. Not the biggest fan of this. Like Phemoir said on the first page, I want an all out war. A battlefield of all out war. Of yeah, and Druid bleeds.
    2. I liked seeing another WSG-esque bg.
    3. Everything really was just the same for me.
    4. Stayed the same.
    5. Battle For Gilneas >.>
    6. I seem to be the only one when I say, I like rising from the floor and the flame walls in the Ring of Valor. I would love to see it back or things like that implemented in other arenas! (Maybe even bgs)
    7. Tol Barad.
    8. Murderball, mostly amongst others
    01/28/2012 07:01 PMPosted by Phbalanced
    -Isle of Conquest, Strand of the Ancients and Alterac Valley should not be part of "random BG's", no one likes them- at all. More specifically siege warfare is lame and does not scale correctly. (HINT: Glaives in IoC, Turrets in SotA)

    You don't speak for everyone my friend.
    I would love to see two things out of MoP.

    First I would like to see small battlegrounds of 3-5 people for capture the flag ect. small maps. could even be an extension of arenas.

    Second, I would like to see blizzard have an immediate backup ready to launch on a moments notice if a class is too strong or weak. It seems "flavor of the month" classes, while less in cata, are still prominent. If you have a contingency that you can put into effect in a days notice it would help alleviate the issue. I understand it is hard to judge how overpowered or underpowered certian classes are until they are put through the live servers. I feel this could help.
    01/28/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Eldacar
    I believe just making the new honor gear available during the season transition week would have minimal negative side effects and make everyone much happier.

    Absolutely agree with this. For those of us who follow the forums/game updates regularly, we knew that it was best to wait until 4.3 patch to upgrade our honor gear. However, not every player does this, and the gear changes were ultimately confusing for some players--players who may have opted to wait a week to obtain those higher ilvl items.

    01/28/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Eldacar
    I think changing resilience to be flat damage reduction instead of crit/dot reduction was great.

    I liked this as well, and I hope resilience as a stat works similarly in MoP as to how it has been working in Cataclysm.


    1. Class balance--I really feel the need to comment here despite remarks from the OP that such talk should be avoided. I fully recognize that things may change significantly balance wise for next expansion; we will see in the beta.

    For all of the complaints about frost mages this expansion, melee have been exceptionally strong across all pvp play. In random bgs I generally count the number of melee (and healers) each side has before a game starts; the side w/the most amount of melee classes usually wins, assuming that each side has at least 1-2 healers.

    I pvp on a priest, hunter, mage, rogue, dk, paladin, and druid this expansion; I am often surprised at how much damage I put out on my DK who is in last season's honor gear; same goes for my rogue and my feral druid. Mages are a strong caster class for pvp, but only in comparison to other casters.

    I honestly believe that most of the threads about class imbalance should be taken with a grain of salt, but I do believe that there is a reason players reroll to a FOTM class every season--those class imbalances really do exist.

    2. Availability of honor gear--as an expansion progresses, it becomes harder and harder for new players/new alts to enter level cap bgs and perform adequately as they honor farm. Recently I leveled a paladin alt who reached level cap last week. As a former 70 twink, she had 4k honor and 4k jp upon hitting 85 due to bg/dungeon farming. After purchasing 390 ilvl honor gear (buying cheapest items first) and converting all of my 4k jp to honor, my paladin had only about 1k resilience (two rings, trinket, cloak, bracers). That is simply not enough resil to be able to stay alive for any significant period of time (unless the other team is similarly undergeared).

    I could have purchased 377 crafted blues, but the AH prices for crafted plate items is over 1k apiece on the server she is on, and she does not have mining so she can offset the cost of the items (unlike the toons on my "main" server, who have every single profession so I can craft anything imaginable).

    I believe this creates a barrier for new players/alts getting into pvp--new gear is potentially expensive, and so they come in w/questing blues and greens equipped, only to get continuously killed by players in full conquest/390 honor gear.

    My suggestion to overcome this is to bring back pvp blue-quality honor gear that is relatively cheap--a player can get a full set from honor obtained from 10-15 wins in the 80-84 bracket. Then they can upgrade that gear to epic quality honor gear via bg farming.

    To compensate for the income loss for tailors/leatherworkers/blacksmiths who would otherwise be crafting pvp blues, give them more "fun" items to craft and sell (engineers shouldn't be the only ones who make fun toys!)

    3. Crowd control--contrary to forum opinion I don't think cc is an issue per se outside of competitive pvp play (1750+ rbgs, 2k+ arena). Players in random bgs rarely cc or interrupt, or even focus healers. I wish there was a way to encourage those players to use their crowd control abilities more often....

    Some classes have a lot of cc (mages, rogues), some have very little (paladins, shamans). I do believe that each class should have roughly equal amounts of cc with roughly similar cooldowns--a paladin's stun w/a 1 min cd doesn't really compare to my freeze/frost nova that I can pump out every 10 seconds or so, although they have a ton of cooldown abilities to compensate.

    Looking at the MoP talent trees, it looks like some of the new talents will help to address this issue, so we'll have to see what happens in the beta.

    4. Human racial--Every Man for Himself should be available for every race so that each race has two trinket slots. PVE trinkets are often very strong and desirable over PVP trinkets and are often a cause of PVP imbalance (ex: feral druids in 4.1). As Horde currently has two aoe racial abilities (Tauren, Blood Elf) and Alliance has none, I suggest changing the human racial to an aoe ability, such as a raid wall, AOE silence immunity or % HP increase for x seconds, and making EMFH an ability for each faction.
    Sorry in advance for the wall of text ^^
    Anyone notice how complex the pvp side is getting? Think of the amount of keybinds you use, the amount of macros. Fake casting, pillar humping the list goes on and on.

    But far the most complex pvp I've experienced from a handful of games.
    ~What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues?

    I had know idea MMR was being abused but when I finally caught wind of it, I stopped doing arena completely. Season transitions are also sloppy.
    I couldn't help to notice that when gearing for PVP on my warrior I had to use the DK belt, for the stats, which didn't match the rest of my set. Not to mention, I saw DK's using the warrior belt for the same reason. Mogging may fix that but conquest points are usually on a thin budget. Plus everyone knows it's a digital fashion show out there when slaughtering the horde :)
    Mogging in arena adds a little confusion in the first few seconds when analyzing opponent comps. Maybe have them temporarily shut off for arena?

    ~What Cataclysm BG changes/additions did you like?

    The new Bg's were refreshing improvements to the classics. Almost like an homage to Vanilla BG's.
    The Raid ui transitioned well into BG's. Though AV / IoC, with so many players, it tends to dominate my screen. Maybe have player frames shrink and inflate on proximity/priority?
    Rated BG's I imagine are cool competitive additions but sadly I haven't experienced them.

    ~What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?

    Inflating the health pools and standardizing healing tools really cured many of the woes plaguing arena of old. Standardizing CC tools is something I cross my fingers for. It can be done without comprimising flavor or homogenizing.

    ~What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?

    Resilience changes has really helped many of the classes that relied on crit for procs become major players again.
    Gearing up season by season was fun because the armor sets seem to almost bloom with more detail and elaborate themes, though I like this seasons armor sets as a whole, they deviated from their respective aesthetics.

    ~What are your top issues with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?

    Queueing for a random and realizing your team has no healer causes futility in the competition. Most strategists know how to exploit this into attrition.
    I begrudgingly despise IoC / AV solely on the fact that it is matter of avoiding incursions and hoping you simply killed the opponents General faster. Many players avoid defending out of fear of turtling and turning the BG into a 30+ minute fight though I always thought that was the sole purpose of them. They are meant to emulate many battles and sieges of old in our real history. Arguments always arise on the strategy of these 2 BG's. I think if defensive kills were worth 2 reinforcements it would not only promote the purpose and intent of the BG's but also quicken their resolve.

    ~What are your top issues with Arenas in Cataclysm?

    Watching Blizzcon I heard the statement, "Attacking a healers Mana...". I want to make this brief without twisting the context but... Blizzard gave healers many tools to heal with, but for the most part they all got "standardized" for the new "make mana matter" philosophy which as I said earlier a good improvement and it still respected class flavors (e.i. druid/hots & priest/shields). Sadly though, CC is and always has been king. The class disparities with CC is a huge factor and decides everything from wins to loses & even team comps. I believe standardizing CC much in the fashion healers (and tanks) did is necessary for overall PVP quality of life. "Attacking healer mana" only applies to priests and warlocks, as they are the only classes with definitive abilities that do such. In a mana tight match with most CD's burned and back on CD, I nerd rage when I see my healer OOM'd by these classes. Remove the mechanic...please.

    ~What are your top issues with General PVP in Cataclysm?

    See above

    ~What already announced Mists PVP changes/additions are you most looking forward to?

    The Talent tree will fix so much.
    Not to mention Murderball sounds like a blast! A suggestion for that... Maybe have a moving zone for double points to keep offense and defense fresh and ever changing. It would also promote more team dynamic.
    I imagine monks will be very unique with a lot of offensive codependent healing.
    With the Horde versus Alliance being prominent story arc, can I suggest that PVP sets be faction different. It will add to the divide and give a uniform feel when say a goblin warrior fights a gnome warrior. The picture itself makes me LOL a lil'.

    TY for this thread. Love this game!

    01/28/2012 07:20 PMPosted by Eldacar
    Phbalanced could you possible condense all that into one post? I don't know why 5 in a row was necessary =/

    Hmmm, I didnt hit it 5 times in a row
    01/29/2012 11:12 PMPosted by Theodos
    Resto druids mechanics are not favorable for Cataclysm arena. Lifebloom switching needs to be easier and should not take 3 globals. Regrowth should instant heal for more, given its high mana cost.

    I second this, for both pvp and pve.

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