Dev Watercooler – The Role of Role

General Discussion
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Its pointless to keep trying to discuss. People just want to speak their minds.

Good luck, Blizzard! This would've been a lot easier for you guys if you had just made a poll...
Its pointless to keep trying to discuss. People just want to speak their minds.

Good luck, Blizzard! This would've been a lot easier for you guys if you had just made a poll...

I actually think the poll's next on the agenda. ;3
i am up for anything. that said, can you at least make all classes comparable in PvP? There is always such a disparity. ie. warriors right now.
Its pointless to keep trying to discuss. People just want to speak their minds.

Good luck, Blizzard! This would've been a lot easier for you guys if you had just made a poll...

That's the point of the blog. They want us to speak our minds, they want to hear what we're thinking. Depending on your perspective Bliz is either looking for a golden nugget of an idea or they're figuring out if they've already laid an egg!
I think this game should have a massive redesign. Maybe not a 5 but something where everything is turned on its head shaken and put back together. I say this as someone who has been playing this game for a very long time and is just tired of the status-quo. I tried rift, was okay the constant world events actually felt like it took to much away from the game and simply made leveling difficult. Wasn't able to get real far in it to see what end game was like. I'm currently trying out SWtor and it has a beautiful story broken up by these not so fun times trying to get heroic areas complete. Both games I feel suffer from the same WoW-tendonitis that WoW is suffering from, they are no longer trying to innovate the game play in any way. Even then out of all of them WoW feels the most varied.

I know change is scary for everyone, but I think it's time that we step back and say let's make this game less bland.
however I'm not the "ideas man" and you already have teams you give our money to that should be doing this anyways.
This is just my two cents and I'm sure most people still won't agree with me but I'm sure there are some that will.
I like the idea of making specs feel more special, but i do not agree with making them specifically for pve/pvp. While obviously specs should be specialized for healing/dps/tanking, I think it would be cool if you could specialize further. Like on a warrior, the only difference between arms and fury(other than slight dps) is the fact that arms uses one 2handed weapon.

Druids are getting another spec, for tanking. In order to specialize further for all characters, why not add another spec for every1? Using warriors as an example again, i think it would be cool for a spec dedicated to purely bleed dmg. While arms is more specialized for burst dps with 2handed weapons, n fury is specialized for quick large hits while dual wielding.

While this idea is a bit more easy to implement with the older specs of Vanilla/bc/wotlk, i think it would be cool if it was implemented. Making specs an actual specialization would make me feel more like my class. Assassination for a rogue atm, while its very heavily related toward poisons, it rly doesnt feel specialized toward it.

I think if the specs were actually specialized toward a specific thing it would make specs more fun. Like a Hunter, wuts the real difference between Survival and MM? pretty much nothing other than the difference in moves. While BM does focus more on pets, its rarely ever seen. If a new spec design is going to be implemented i think it should help if they were balanced enough that it didnt matter which dps spec you were or heals. But you play wut you want to have fun.

This is just my opinion, hopefully its taken into account, and hopefully many ppl would agree.
I feel that what is the most important is to keep a stable balance while still making everyone happy, obviously this is your goal as well, and I think the best way is really a combination of all of those. The pro's and con's of each are not all that hard to really put together. For instance, a player is a little bit attached to their class, I can honestly say I have a fierce Disc spec pride, and I've seen others with the same, and in other classes. Though to be honest with you, at 85, the perks of being a Disc priest (AKA the bubble) sort of don't seem that awesome, but I keep using it! And for pvp. Basically what I'm getting down to is that each class likes having something special about them to boast about in each spec, but there is quite a distinction between pve players and pvp players, and it's not like people dislike the fact that some specs help with either of those two and not the other. If the perks lent themselves towards pvp but also weren't a bad thing for pve, as it is now, then that's great. I think the distinction between specs now is a little foggy, and maybe could be cleared up with a bit more spell distinction, but the roles you play are chosen in the beginning and if a Warlock is going to boo-hoo over not being a healer or a tank, they really made a pretty bad class distinction (and lets face it, there's the whole PVP side that could care way less about tanks/healing, and they're fine with the roles.)

In the end, I'm one of those players that honestly preferred it when we had mile long talent specs that I could tailor fit to be my unique own mix that gave me just the edge which worked for me, but simplicity is good too, and in the end, it's going to be a combination of feeling unique or badass in your class and spec, and whether you pick PVE or PVP, is my only general vote of advice as to what to give us all. As long as I can proudly say 'Heck yes, I am a Disc priest.' I'll be happy.
I honestly agree with Nightbattler, the game almost needs to restart. The game is all about your DPS and what not. Specs arent played for fun, they are played for highest dmg output. Specs are also just copied over n over for again, highest output.

There are many things that needs changed(like the fact you sit in org all day)-but thats a topic for later. Specs in the bc, yes they were copied, but it didnt rly matter wut you were. Rogues all the time went half sub half combat. While i have alrdy said that specs should be more about specialization in a topic(like affliction for shadow dmg over time, and destruction for fire burst dmg) The new specs going to be implemented with MOP honestly would make it harder to make talents a real specialization.

Btw, anybody who only plays one role @ 85 should not be commenting, IMO.

I think a mix of model one and two would be good. All dps specs could do equal dps so that there is never a reason to stack any one dps class over another. At the same time each dps spec could have interesting mechanics between the specs as well as bringing a unique utility that no other spec can bring so that while you can rest assured that no matter what dps class or spec you choose, you won't be passed over because your class or spec has been determined to be "unfit" for heroic raiding, but at the same time a person could still have the incentive to switch specs or even reroll to another class because of a specific utility or because how that spec does it's dps.

I think the current proposed Warlock specs is a great start in the mechanics department. Presuming that all 3 specs deal the same amount of dps, one has the choice of dots and Malefic Grasp, using a demon form with demonic fury and Shadow Bolt, or handling Embers and Incinerate.

For example take Arcane Mage and it's mastery. While the mastery is fairly interesting, Arcane can be a rather dull class since you are essentially using 1-2 buttons and spamming them for the whole fight. I think a nice interaction would be having Arcane Barrage transform into a different spell depending on the amount of mana remaning and each form having an effect that ties in to either Arcane Blast or Arcane Missles, or even the new Arcane Orb.

Then fire could stay like the rng as it is now, but maybe have Hot streak stack so that it can become more of a choice of when to let loose Pyroblasts instead of having to feel like you gotta let it go asap.

Frost could have a mechanic of snap freezing in which each time you cast Frost Bold, you stack a debuff on the target and once it gets to a certain number, the target "snap freezes" and any spell you cast after that will apply it's damage twice (once for the actual spell hitting, and a second for destroying the ice that froze to the target). This could work along side Shatter, Fingers of Frost and Brainfreeze.

As for utilities, I think Time Warp could be reworked so that instead of being a carbon copy of Blood Lust/Heroism, it could slow time down for everything withing 100 yards or so. This could be treated as a more defensive Heroism as it gives time for cooldowns to finish, healers to heal any critical players, and gives more time for burn phases. Fire mages could get something like Flash Fire which could act instill a debuff on all enemies within 100 yards to take increased damage for x amount of seconds. Frost could get Absolute Zero which could act like a raid wide Ice Block for when a raid boss is about to use an attack an there is no way to reliably heal through it or all other cooldowns have been used up.

While I singled out mage for my example, I'm sure it could work with all dps specs and be made so that no two utilities are 100% identical and each spec can now provide something much more unique than simple doing x amount more dps than y.
Btw, anybody who only plays one role @ 85 should not be commenting, IMO.

Specs effect every player, even players who don't use more specs. Perhaps, if specs were different, they would play multiple specs. This is a generalized discussion which effects ever player and no one should be excluded from giving their opinion.
In a recent dungeon, I went in as a DPS. Our healer felt abused and rage quit because of the constant party wipes, and rage quit.

I changed my talents from Elemental to Restoration and started to be the healer. Our party completed the dungeon with 4 men and no more party wipes. Now that is what I would like to see made easier with all classes.

Classes don't necessarily have to have all 3 roles - DPS, Healing, and Tanking. But switching in a dungeon to a different role shouldn't be hard either. Suppose my Elemental RDPS was just wrong for the situation. Going to MDPS might have made more sense than becoming a Healer but I'm limited to only two talent specs being trained at any one time.

I would say each class should have a choice of 3 of the following talents: MDPS (single target), MDPS (AoE), RDPS (single target), RDPS (AoE), Healer, Tank, and PvP. All talents will be targeted to make the specialty really good while generic spells and abilities may still be available.

PvP could have a Spell call Resilience which could be used in a PvP environment. The talent specialty could boost this spell even more or make it stack with equipment. The whole idea is that this talent would be totally useless in a PvE environment. It could also have a penalty to healing so that healer classes won't be OP in various PvP situations.

The idea of breaking DPS into 4 separate categories is to balance out each one easier with the rest of the DPS. An AoE DPS may shine for trash/adds. But for a Boss may not be so good. And a single target DPS might struggle with trash/adds, might be able to tear through a Boss providing somebody else took care of the adds.

Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps sparks somebody's imagination.
Whatever you decide, do it quickly and stick with it. Changing the rules in a game is bad and you have done it many many times.

bump that!

02/14/2012 12:49 PMPosted by Zeleros
Rogues all the time went half sub half combat.

that was one of my favorites!

I just had a thought -- remember how DKs were an unlocked "hero class"? How about letting people have a fourth spec -- as an unlocked "hero spec" -- that is something totally different from their regular specs. Either they get a single fourth spec unlocked, or they get the option to choose between 3 specs -- DPS/Heals/Tank. Maybe 4 -- MeleeDPS/RangedDPS/Heals/Tank. Perhaps construct it as a full talent tree of the current style. Perhaps yoink the AA point advancement system from EQ (classic or retro or something). Or make it more like the Veteran Awards of City of Heroes, where you have to fill in all the award-ranks to "advance," but you get to choose which ones to fill in at which level.

E.g., give warlocks a tanking spec, probably based on some kind of spell (or talent "spell") that makes them hard to hit, and a mongo health-drain. (Most awesome thing I have seen recently in EverQuest (Al'Kabor, retro EverQuest) was... a tanking necromancer! It. Was. Awesome.) Or let them heal other people with a "Life Shunt" from the mob to the person needing the healing.

Give mages a healing spec -- manaborg people! (I'm remembering the blood elves who used to be on Azshara, who cast fireballs and healing spells, both.) Use the power of MAGIC to bind wounds from a distance, say. Or let that Mana Shield power go a heck of a lot more potent, and have a Tanking Mage.

You say Druids have a tanking spec already, and it's Bear? Sure, sure. But I always kinda wanted to be a Panzerkin. The talents changed too much before I was really willing to take that plunge... But if I could unlock that somehow? FLAMING FEATHERED FURY RAR! (Meanwhile, give me back tree form! I miss having a spare toolbar for Tree-only spells. =p Also, I feel naked when I don't have branches all the time.)

Paladins could get a ranged DPS spec option. Arrows of Light. You watch the anime Bleach, right? Two words: QUINCY BOWS.

Hero Specs could let you experiment with that "go back to the start" where everyone could have a hybrid spec. It would be awesome.
get the option to choose between 3 specs -- DPS/Heals/Tank. Maybe 4 -- MeleeDPS/RangedDPS/Heals/Tank

The problem with that theory is that not everything is game mechanics, as the lore of the game goes, it would be pretty rediculous to have a Warlock/Priest/Hunter/Mage tanking while you have a Warrior heals. I mean, it's a cool idea to add a bit more flavor, but not everyones meant to have all that reponsibility.
I got a few things which alot of people hate on my server. 1 is the fact RBGs should have been queable not gather a team up with people who you cant rely on. 2nd RBgs is a total peice of crap its a crap fest on the flag carriing u always have to wait for high stacks which okay yeah i can see but cap the flags like guilnies is a total loss its whoever gets the water works and aoes the flag the whole time i mean come on its more of a pain then actual fun. RBgs needs a whole new lookout. also theres so much cc in the game its crazy along with interupts its tough to be a caster for pvp. also the fact that everyones sick of gulch carry the flag o joy hold the flag mhmm so fun. also raids are dumb and a waste becuase you spend countless days for gear and you dont win it. waste of time therefor i pvp. arena needs redesighned yull never get a high rating in 2s with healer dps comp thats a jok. and its to hard to find dedicated 5s. so your left to 3s comp which is a joke cuz its a must to run rogue mage or lock with a preist pally n shammy. honestly and alot wont agree i think it should be dps for every bracket 2, 3 ,5 make it more skill based. or make seperate brackets. rather then sit on the shammy los and press yur luck right. im sick of haveing to be a frost mage all the time im actually arcane and i like it for pvp along with fire but it all gets to boring im sick of every class. there making a monk in pandoraia make about 5 more classes blizzard or redisghn everyone or just flat out make a new mmo with more to it then just well i gatta level this new guy cuz they nerfed my mage or war for the next 3 months get burned out, n burned out geareing at 85. with only pvp and raids what else is there. and my server flat out sucks for pugging. also make it to where u can use every profession on 1 guy but with only 2 benifits from them or as long as u have the j/c on the pally and enchanting on the mage u can level it up on the warrior but still wont have the benifits less its on your guy. theres so much crap wrong with this game its not even funny start updating this game every week rather then well well fix it next patch 4 months from now so rogues are op till then have fun. right
02/14/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Marie
Paladins could get a ranged DPS spec option. Arrows of Light. You watch the anime Bleach, right? Two words: QUINCY BOWS.

hehehe that would be something else

02/14/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Olivella
The problem with that theory is that not everything is game mechanics, as the lore of the game goes, it would be pretty rediculous to have a Warlock/Priest/Hunter/Mage tanking while you have a Warrior heals. I mean, it's a cool idea to add a bit more flavor, but not everyones meant to have all that reponsibility.

^^ I agree, classic rpg lore, wow lore, etc. should be held and kept... ive said this before, this is not Rift... even though quincy ranged combat would be dope ;) finally turn the page and show them hunters and mages what it felt like all these years lol

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