Dev Watercooler – The Role of Role

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Realistically it does not matter which one of these is the prefect solution. Just pick a methodology and stick with it. The fact we have seen all 5 of these in the life of wow is what is starting to irritate the population.
I did some research on PVP, I wanted to look at the most desireable classes for PVP

Looked at:
5v5 top 10 rated teams, all battle groups, teams over 2000

I chose this demographic because I think it applies alot to PVP in general, and it also represents the best of the best. I counted the number of players in teams with scores above 2000, but limited results to the top ten per battlegroup. I then sorted according to two roles, DPS and Heals; tanks are not viable in PVP, due to the fact you don't have dumb mobs to deal with.

DPS (number of players using each class)
Priest - 66
Rouge - 53
Mage - 48
Warlock - 42
Druid - 26
Death knight - 25
Shaman - 15
Paladin - 15
Hunter - 7
Warrior - 5

Heals (number of players using each class)
Shaman - 42
Paladin - 41
Druid - 5
Priest - 3

IMO role issues with PVP are clear!
Hunters, and Warriors suck totally having a total combined score of 12
Following close behind: DKs with 25 and Druids with a heals/dps score of 31
Shamen and Paladins should only be used for healing
Priests, Rouges, Mages, and Warlocks may need DPS tuned down
Priests and Druids are worthless for healing


edit: Sample size was 393, 17% of all were DPS Priest, less than 2% each for Hunter and Warrior, less than 2% Druid healers, and less than 1% Priest healers.
One problem is with so called "utility characters".Characters are called into raid for their dps or healing output.Not many groups these days take a charcter for their utility and overlook the lower dps.Raiding dps has become a Recount meter race.If your not pulling your weigt,your normally replaced.I believe utility characters to be a fail design.You dont even need a shaman anymore for Hero.You can get pally buffs without a pally.Bottom line is if you are a utility character and find yourself on the bottom of the dps or healing meters,your probably in hot water with your group,and your "utility" probably wont get you out.
This is a great blog on a very complicated issue, and I won't pretend to be knowledgeable enough regarding the inner workings of any ramifications pertaining to the topic in question, but I do know...


It's fun to tank as a demonlock sometimes. Even if its only for 30 seconds (or maybe especially because it is).
Ive posted on this thread several times. Its kind of an addicting topic. So much potential. In all honesty people need to realize this is a rock, papers, scissors game. And keeping it that way is the key to balance. All this blurring of the lines is causing the game to go out of whack. People should accept a classes pro's and con's before they make it. Instead of just rushing in because it looks cool. Do you know why there are so many dps players? Because people dont want to think they just want to faceroll and QQ when they cant. Thats why theres not as many healers and tanks. When youre dps you can screw off, pull mobs before the tank, its not your job to keep threat in check or heal anyone what do you care? And this happens ALL the time. Tanking has become such a chore for the idiots in pugs that its rediculous and kills the fun of the game. I even had a GM in game tell me they avoid instance pugs for less stress. And the sad thing is on alot of the dying realms pugging is the only way to do even low level instances anymore. Having said that, its also a rock, paper, scissors game in terms of roles. There are three roles and need to perform their job in the correct order. Rock pulls, paper heals, and scissors kill. When you give scissors the ability to pull are they really a pair of scissors or are they a rock now? Or if you give paper the ability to dps are they really paper or just a lame pair of scissors now? Also, heirlooms have blurred the lines even more and have thrown balance out of whack. Ive had bad dps players in full heirlooms pull mobs and I as the healer have left them to die hoping they'd learn and sadly their gear is what saves them. When the gear goes beyond the scope of the instance it breaks down the group mechanics and you no longer need rock or paper because scissors can now do it all.... Currently we have 4 tank, 4 heals, and 10 dps classes. Does every class really need to be able to do competitive raid/bg dps or do they only really need to be able to have just enough dps to get by? I.E leveling.
02/14/2012 06:13 PMPosted by Xelizar
Ive posted on this thread several times. Its kind of an addicting topic. So much potential. In all honesty people need to realize this is a rock, papers, scissors game. And keeping it that way is the key to balance. All this blurring of the lines is causing the game to go out of whack. People should accept a classes pro's and con's before they make it. Instead of just rushing in because it looks cool. Do you know why there are so many dps players? Because people dont want to think they just want to faceroll and QQ when they cant. Thats why theres not as many healers and tanks. When youre dps you can screw off, pull mobs before the tank, its not your job to keep threat in check or heal anyone what do you care? And this happens ALL the time. Tanking has become such a chore for the idiots in pugs that its rediculous and kills the fun of the game. I even had a GM in game tell me they avoid instance pugs for less stress. And the sad thing is on alot of the dying realms pugging is the only way to do even low level instances anymore. Having said that, its also a rock, paper, scissors game in terms of roles. There are three rolls and need to perform their job in the correct order. Rock pulls, paper heals, and scissors kill. When you give scissors the ability to pull are they really a pair of scissors or are they a rock now? Or if you give paper the ability to dps are they really paper or just a lame pair of scissors now? Also, heirlooms have blurred the lines even more and have thrown balance out of whack. Ive had bad dps players in full heirlooms pull mobs and I as the healer have left them to die hoping they'd learn and sadly their gear is what saves them. When the gear goes beyond the scope of the instance it breaks down the group mechanics and you no longer need rock or paper because scissors can now do it all.... Currently we have 4 tank, 4 heals, and 10 dps classes. Does every class really need to be able to do competitive raid/bg dps or do they only really need to be able to have just enough dps to get by? I.E leveling.


wow that was nice!
5. I want my rogue tank.

:D
5. I want my rogue tank.

:D


on my wish list is a melee-hunter... but they need to fix whats broke first!
Isn't the whole point to allow many possible combinations and choices.

I think people should be able to pick and choose from any of the three possible spcs. The most powerful ability should be at the bottom of the spec (so if people decide to do a 30/30/30 mix they will not gain the most powerful ability of that spec).

This used to be true in BC but currently is no longer the case. For example the last point of a healing pally gives you light of dawn, which is pretty much useless in arena.

In prot the last point is hardent defender, a spell with a 3 min cd that doesn't really make or break a tank.

Balance druid have starfall as their last ability, why not moonkin, resto druids have tree, which used to be quite an improvement but now it can't be used all the time.

Anyway anything that lets players be more unique and less out-of-an-assembly-line is what I would go for
Hey, @Autolocus

Those are perfectly good perspectives on how certain classes (Mages, Warlocks, Hunters, Rouges) go with the lore to take up the role of tanking.

As a matter of fact, i certainly feel that having 3 different specs for each class provided good perspectives on how people can view a class differently for the flavor. For example, in a hunter, some people like to be a master of beasts, or a sharpshooter with a ranged weapons, or a survivor in the harsh wilderness. I hvae not played all classes and all specs but I feel WoW since Vanilla to Cataclysm have generally done a good job of maintaining this great feature.

But we also have to recognize that we are in a fantasy game built on the existing world of WarCarft with its unique stories, characters and plots. I can only cite 1 or 2 games that has this kind of depth, such as Star Wars (who inherited this from the movies) and Star Wars creates the game it to its world, characters, and lore, such as the people (like Anakin and Luke) making evil or good decisions, etc. Player-created characters are also molded based on conventional character stereotypes such as the chewbacca , a twilek, a Ewok(?) etc.

In WarCraft, it has its own set of characters such as Rexxar, where perhaps Beastmasters should be modeled to. And in this perspective, I do not see Hunters as healers apart from healing their pets or the pet healing their masters, or the pet providing some minor heals to other people. For in Model 5, every class can be a tank, healer and DPS. While I am fine with the tanking pet, it should not drastically outperform a player tank such a warrior or bear druid, cos' pets are beings of inferior existence to its master. To this end, I think WoW has demonstrated it in the current game. Perhaps all that is needed is some augmentation and fine-tuning to make it more apparent and distinctive.
I'm honestly tired of being a ranged DPS only. The option that you mention is the least likely is the one that gets me the most excited. Redesigning classes and allowing the "pures" to enjoy the benefits of being hybrid. We know that hybrids are on par (sometimes even higher) than pures. There is no benefit from picking mage/rogue/hunter/lock over any other class.

As a mage I find it extremely frustrating how squishy I am. Not only against max level (where frost's CC helps with the issue) but even as a level 85 if I wanted to go solo old content (level 80 heroics for example) it becomes impossible to do it effectively and in a decent amount of time. Other classes can solo entire raids. I know it's a game that's meant to be played in a group, but sometimes people don't feel like going back to help you get the last bit of rep or transmorg item that you want.

Anyway, my ideal would be to have pures go into a hybrid system, give each of the 4 classes new roles and in the case of mage I'd like to have:

- Arcane as the ranged DPS spec. Introduce more telekinetic flavored spells, knock backs and life grips kinda stuff. Give arcane more cc tools to make it competitive for ranged dps in pvp.

- Fire as a melee DPS tree. i'd love to see mages using the same gear on all specs, so for this to work fire would rely on summoned/conjured weapons with fire themes. Small phoenix, molten fists, meteors, and other tricks that can only be used in melee ranged. Living bomb would be casted on the mage and he would be THE living bomb people have to get away from (unlike the current spell which is so weak that healers don't even dispel it).

- Frost as a Tanking tree. Again, weapon of choice would be caster weapon but the mage frost tank could use a summoned shield to block attacks, introduce more absorbing spells, for example ice wall could be conjured to block incoming damage to the mage and everyone behind the wall.

Of course what I'm talking about is not WoW anymore, and since WoW is the only game I play I feel bad that I'm trapped in a class that has an extremely limited role, I can only hope raid wide achievements will be followed by mounts and pets shared with all toons so I can finally move on to a hybrid that will do as much damage, provide the same buffs (or comparable) and make me want to log on the nights I'm not raiding.
I would be happy if they stopped trying to re-make the game, and fix the glaring flaws.

The roles are fine...

Paper, Rock, Scissors

Blurring these lines are what make classes overpowered in the first place:
A paladin capable of doing damage, when hes in trouble... starts healing himself
A druid specced for heals or dps, tank goes down.... up goes bear!

A good example of where it is not overpowered:
A warlock (demonology) turns demon and for 30 seconds can help with aggro

Truly if anything needs to be done, then roles need to be more solid with only minor non-game-breaking exceptions.
Is it at all possible that we'll get a blue response about our feedback? Any specific points Blizzard would like to address with our thoughts?
How about for pure DPS classes you just do away with this class "specialization" and give the player all the spells/abilities. Since there is no more talent tree in place of this new MoP talent "bar" system, let the player be the player and allow them to make their own choices for whats better for them to use on a certain fight/rotation/what ever makes them feel happy. I dont have to say youll have to balance out each spell/boss, because you all do a great job balancing specs as is!, why not make it easier on yourselves and make it just ONE class instead of "I am a "fire" mage who missed 'how to cast an arcane barrage' class at mage school or a demon lock who missed the second half of the class on 'how to cast all your DoTs'". Yes this would mean Mastery would need a rework but thats fine I personally never liked that secondary stat :P
i concur with nidar and dreltath:

i always thought the idea of having 3 talent trees in the first place was so that those who wanted their mage to shoot fireballs and do mountains of elemental dps would spec fire; those who wanted to do crazy crowd control effects like polymorph, slow, non-threat inducing dps, reduced spell cooldowns and the like would go arcane, and those who wanted to keep enemies from getting close would pick frost.

the mystical "balance" issues that seem to plague gc, always seem to be fine until they get "fixed" when a previous exploit of a single talent or a single game mechanic turns an entire tree into a useless filler role. remember how cool paladins were in bc? a few patches into lich king, paladins of all types again faded into near-obsolescence. hunters used to be the kings at kiting their foes, and beast mastery allowed taming all those delightfully exotic beasts that we'd been eyeing since the game came out (here's looking at you, Devilsaur/ravager/core hound afficionadoes), but then they and their pets took a huge plunge in dps and their ability to manage threat as well as their little bit of almost necessary self/pet-heals. before wotlk i never heard of a mage being able to take hits (plural) from a warrior and still be able to beat him in a duel. and warriors? i'm pretty sure most of them took their dual-wielding two-handers and left already for the slopes of mt. arreat. balance is great, but why does every single class have to have every single role? i picked paladin cause i wanted to take a few hits and deal a few back and heal a bit while i'm at it, not cause i wanted to out-dps the entire party, or out-heal the druid treant.

perfect example of "balance" gone wrong: the death knight. they were one of the MOST anticipated new classes in the game, the fabled "hero class" (of which we were assured they were only going to be the first), you couldn't even play as one unless you already had made your way near the end-game of pve, experiencing a large part of the world of warcraft. then there were 3 separate and not really equal death knights: unholy spec, who could raise a permanent and thoroughly rewarding ghoul pet, as well as do some of the best pvp dps and got magic resist bonuses, an extra pet (the gargoyle), as well as a boost to their dots. then their was the frost knight, who was a tank not quite as great as a prot paly, but much more reliable dps, and some great skills not available to the other specs (frost blast and lichborne). last but certainly my own favorite, was the blood knight, able to unleash dps previously unheard of on the hordes of the lich king as well as some self-heals and a cute little pack of ravenous bloodworms. now all 3 are kind of middle of the road dps or tank, a paladin without the healing or spell power advantages; excepting the frost knight which has become the pvp spec

balance is great; there's no reason a priest should be a party's only healer, or a warrior the only tank available, but at the same time, i don't see why mages need damage reduction and hp pools to put them on equal footing with that same warrior. likewise, a paladin should be a good blend of healer, tank, and dps, but i don't think that means a priest should be obsolete. a druid is another good blend of 3 or 4 different roles (to include stealth), but i don't think their magic should out-dps a warlock or their melee to out-dps a rogue. a party needs a group to work together, not simply be a pile of one class or another without any sense of teamwork. same line of reasoning i feel applies to class selection: if i want to play a rogue, why would i want to be a tank? if i want to play a death knight, why should i expect to out dot-dps a warlock? if i wanted to play as that warlock, why should i be penalized across the board and subjected to inadequate gear selection simply because another class isn't seeing enough play-time on the realms?

balance should be handled by comparing the usefulness of a class to its own abilities and limitations, not by trying to equalize every single class, or giving every class every role. crafting professions and dual-talent spec can help close the gaps between classes. by making some classes better than others at certain roles, you can expect a paladin to have great single-target heals, but maybe not the aoe heal capability of a priest. a rogue might be great at single-target dps, but should probably not have the same damage-soaking abilities, hp totals, or armor class as you would expect from a death knight, and that death knight could be a true terror in a mass melee, or be able to hold aggro should the main tank fall, but his dots probably shouldn't be as terrifying as an affliction warlock.
..an extra pet (the gargoyle), as well as a boost to their dots. then their was the frost knight, who was a tank not quite as great as a prot paly, but much more reliable dps, and some great skills not available to the other specs (frost blast and lichborne). last but certainly my own favorite, was the blood knight, able to unleash dps previously unheard of on the hordes of the lich king as well as some self-heals and a cute little pack of ravenous bloodworms. now all 3 are kind of middle of the road dps or tank


+2 to fun and specialization.

That people are entertaining the idea that one model is going to help or balance every class by itself is amusingly absurd.

Each class can only benefit from the model that works for it. If a Mage only has 1 spec, or a class gets 4, then that's how it will be.

My two copper:

I used to rogue as combat. I noticed that assassination had an easier rotation and did more consistent dps. The way I saw it was that Sub was generally the most survivable. Combat had a harder rotation that, if you nailed the rotation, did the best dps. And assassination had an easier rotation and was more forgiving for letting a dot fall off for a few seconds.

I like the thought of having a spec that can provide consistent high dps, even if that toon is a fourth string alt and I am inexperienced with it. I also like having a spec that if you are very skilled will rock the meters.
People dont run DPS priests for sole DPS however, they run them as a utility DPS/heals class. Not to mention holy/disc priests have virtually no PvP arena capabilities due to shadow priests Fade Talent, Mind Horror, and Dispersion. This is coupled with the fact that they're flash heal is actually relatively good in Arena situations as well as being a back up heal. Even though they may do well in some Arena situations, it's primarily a utility spec that requires another DPS to do most of the damage while the shadow priests kites their enemies as much as possible.
Probably late, but I've been thinking about this a lot.

I hear people laughing at others that now they can't be a special snowflake. If I can't be special, or at least feel special, especially if I'm good at something and work hard at it, what's the point?

In relation to the role on role, the issue isn't that people can't be special, it's just that too often, it's only the same specs and types of characters that get to be special. Blizzard has done a pretty good job of making it better. But it's still pretty bad imo.

I like there being roles. I think it's what makes an MMO a MMO. If there weren't roles, you get stand-along games because it doesn't matter what your comrade does you can play with clones.

The thing that infuriates me is seeing a blizz post that seems to not notice certain situations when it comes to the raiding community. I don't think anyone would mind fire-mages being top dog on dps if they weren't top dog on all types of DPS that dragon-soul requires. You need burts, we have MAGES! You need AOE, we have mages! You need sustained damage, MAGES! There are other specs that can do as well, and player skill can overcome the spec limitations, but first choice, fire mages! On top of that, for whatever perverse reasoning, the few fights that call for utility, a fire mage can handle. Heroism, fire-mage. Intellect, fire mages. There are a couple buffs that might make you want another type of dps, warlock/boomkin/ele shaman, but really, you're bringing them for the buff and it would take to long to for them to get their alts ready. That's not diversity, that's happenstance. Which, you can complete the fights with, but there's a difference between being able to do something and shine at it. And Blizz has failed at providing ample opportunities at the shine!

It's inevitable that their will be fights like spine where you want to stack, even slightly, a class/spec, but for DPS, again, the entire tier is a homage to mages. And believe it or not, I don't want mages struck down so if you have a model that everyone isn't the same, how about putting content in that actually showcases the differences.

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