Shiv Changes

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02/15/2012 09:08 PMPosted by Gankz
5, what's with the Silence removal from Garrote?
It says it silences for 3sec when I look at it. Maybe you should look again.

Ah your right, missed that.

02/15/2012 09:00 PMPosted by Verelyse
I'm having catastrophic personal difficulties relating any of these questions to Shiv. :s

it dosen't have a lot to do with shiv. but how often do we get a blue posting around here, might as well take the opportunity and ask some questions.
<3 you Daxx.

New shiv sounds sweet.
Blues read the Rogue forums, they just don't like to break stealth....

02/15/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though.

I like the Shiv change as a whole, but it does have me a little worried. Consider:

Shuriken Toss (or HaT/Premed with Versatility) with Deadly Throw => Ranged snare.
alternately, Shuriken Toss with Crippling Poison => Ranged snare.
--> Either is good because it allows for Prep instead of Step or BoS.

Also consider: Step or BoS + Shuriken Toss/Deadly Throw + Shiv Paralytic Poison.
--> It comes at the cost of Prep, but do you think you're getting rid of that Rogue?

Mind Numbing might be OK since Shiv requires melee range ... but I have to ask: Are Hunters still dependent on a cast time for Focus? That could really screw them over, especially with a Rogue super-armed for gap-closing.


Another concern: Shiv and Expose Armor do not advance Bandit's Guile.

A third concern: 20 energy for no damage, but both a poison proc chance (maybe good damage with Mut) and a combo point (maybe 2 with Mut and Sub).


That's not to say any of these WILL be OP. There are a lot of changes to a lot of classes, far too many to try and make a good prediction. We'll need to watch them closely in Alpha/Beta. Please pay very close attention to them.
I can't see rogues spending 25 energy on an extra 20% snare.
Hi, Daxx. Will we be able to apply two different poisons to each hand (one lethal, one non-lethal)?

It's one of each type...

Thanks, Rfeann. I asked because the tooltip for Deadly Brew seems to indicate multiple non-lethal poisons:

Whenever you apply one of your Non-Lethal poisons to a target, you also apply Crippling Poison.

If we're limited to one non-lethal poison the tooltip should read:

Whenever you apply a non-lethal poison to your target, you also apply Crippling Poison.

It also seems a bit strange to give us two different lethal poisons if we can only use one, especially when Improved Poisons benefits both.

Finally, Crippling poison isn't a choice for a PvP rogue. It's a necessity. At best you could add one more non-lethal PvP poison through Deadly Brew. But then, Paralytic and Deadly Brew are in the same tier. So is Paralytic meant to be a PvE poison? Especially when Leeching seems like a much better choice?

It just doesn't quite add up to me.
02/16/2012 06:43 AMPosted by Vîc
If we're limited to one non-lethal poison the tooltip should read

You gotta recall though that there is more than 1 person who writes the tooltips.

Looking over them some use "him" when referring to the caster others use "her" and others still use "the <class>" etc.

I wouldnt look too much into that specific area of tooltips.
The leaching poison shiv is very interesting however it seems like cheat death or elusiveness will still be the way to go. Most likely cheat death will be primary assuming that wizard cleaves remain prominent.
Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health

Current, total, or max?
Daxx, how does the new Shiv work with Deadly Brew?

My concern is that rogues have always emphasized control; a baseline 70% slow is a huge aspect of that control.

Are rogues trading control for damage in MoP?
02/16/2012 07:15 AMPosted by Timat
Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health

Current, total, or max?

I would assume that it's 5% of whatever your maximum health pool is at the time of use.
Thanks, Rfeann. I asked because the tooltip for Deadly Brew seems to indicate multiple non-lethal poisons:

Whenever you apply one of your Non-Lethal poisons to a target, you also apply Crippling Poison.

If we're limited to one non-lethal poison the tooltip should read:

Whenever you apply a non-lethal poison to your target, you also apply Crippling Poison.

Oooh. I agree! Like Timat said, I'm sure these tooltips have yet to go through a thorough grammar scrubbing, but that's a good point about the unclear wording. My certainty (or, well, as certain as I can be, being some random dude on the Internets) about the only-one-of-each thing stems from earlier dev chats. Ghostcrawler wrote this back in late October:

We are reworking poisons. For starters, rogue damage is balanced around the expectation of two damage poisons, which makes it really brutal to use a utility poision instead. In MoP, you will have one damage poison and one utility poison so you can choose which utility poison to use (and not IF you want a utility poison). We also want to reduce the amount of ramping that rogue DPS requires, such as removing the need for Deadly Poison to stack. (And likewise we want to make Bandit's Guile less punitive when swapping targets.)

Things may well have changed since then, but from what we see of the latest iteration of the talent calculator, I'm thinking they haven't -- not in the number-of-poison respect, anyway.
Thanks, Rfeann.

So Paralytic must be intended to replace Crippling? I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out.
Was shocked to see blue post

Came in expecting generic "don't panic, nothing's final" post

Left pleasantly surprised
I'm pretty sure it was all just a Shiv-induced dream.
02/15/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Tantojutsu
We always knew you loved us.

I have to chuckle because I recall the days of entire threads dedicated to the question of why "Blizz" hates rogues and *vanish* OMGSPIDERS /\/\(;..;)/\/\.

But yes, we really always did. We love all our adventuring childrens and we have no favorites (this means you, reader who plays another class who is currently considering re-posting this thread in another class forum while claiming that Blizzard loves rogues best because they got a blue post here.)

Now then, to business!
Q. Will the thrown weapon talents have a chance to apply one or both active poisons?
We're not sure about this yet. It's more likely that we'll apply damage poisons than the non-lethal ones, especially in the case of Shuriken, because a fairly spammable ranged snare is probably too good.

Sorry, guys. You can still use Shuriken + Deadly Throw though!

Q. If I have Deadly Brew, will Shiv amplify that Crippling Poison effect in addition to my active poisons?
No. Deadly Brew isn't the same as having Crippling actually active.

Q. For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.

Q. How does poison proccing work now, and what does that mean for weapon speed.
Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part, while Combat will use a 2.6 main hand and a 1.8 offhand dagger. I know some of you noticed a Main Gauche change, and the intention isn’t a nerf. If it needs adjustment, it’s important to remember that numbers are still in flux.

On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.

Q. So, how about an offensive dispel using the shiv system (perhaps as an alternative to Mind Numbing)?
It's something we might consider, but if too many people have access to an effect like that, then magic buffs are increasingly devalued, and that causes all kinds of problems. For example, something like Hand of Protection is cool, but significantly less meaningful if too many classes out there can remove it with a button press. So, we'll think about it, but don't get your hopes up.

Q. Is Mind Numbing nerfed, now that it won’t affect all casts for the duration?
That's a bit of a misunderstanding. Base Mind-Numbing is unchanged and works as it does now. The new Shiv effect stacks on top of the base Mind-Numbing, and is more than triply effective on the single next spellcast.

Q. Any chance of a sweet UI element warning the rogue that he’s approaching 5 stacks of paralytic poison, or letting him know that it went off?
Making it easier to track buffs and debuffs in the UI, including using the Spell Alert system, is something we're always looking at.

Sadly, because it was too good -- which is pretty much the same reason anything ever gets nerfed. Basically, we're looking to chill out some of the passive, automatically-applied snares on some classes get because there's no real gameplay to them beyond just I touch you and you're snared.

Crippling is an important tool though, and we didn't want to take it away entirely. By lowering the base snare and allowing Shiv to still apply the -70% form, snaring opponents or kiting other melee classes that also have snares becomes something you'll need to think about and manage.

Is Crippling going to last 12 seconds in PVP now, instead of 8 seconds?
Nay. PvP durations are capped at 8 (and nothing should break that rule), but PvP durations aren’t shown in the tooltips.

Q. Under the proposed system, it looks like it won’t be possible to take both Paralytic and Leeching Poison. Will we have to have to choose between Paralytic and Crippling?
You can take both Paralytic and Leeching, but you'll be able to actively make use of one at a time. That said, switching poisons isn't necessarily impossible in the heat of combat -- the cast time on swapping will be fairly short.

That said, we're taking a look at the decision involved in the current placement of the different Poison-related talents, and that's something we may reevaluate. Still early days yet – and that applies to everything in this list.

Q. But Daxx! RAWR RAIDING! What's this PvP nonsense?
We'd like Shiv to be useful when raiding too, and increasing the availability of such effects makes it easier to design encounters that permit them to shine. It bears mentioning that, even now, the various Shiv effects could be useful in existing raid encounters. There’s no reason to expect that they couldn't be useful in Mists raid design too.

Also, there's more to PvE than raiding. Just because a talent isn't useful when you're fighting Ultraxion doesn't mean it isn't useful in PvE at large. There's still leveling (remember, tier 1 talents should ideally be relevant and useful to a level 15 player!), outdoor dailies, the upcoming challenge modes, and more to consider.

Sooooo… Does this mean that rogue damage might go up if we lose some control/mobility/survivability?
We want rogue PvE damage to remain top-tier. But yes, if rogues end up with less control or mobility or survivability, and they have to choose among those areas, then that allows us to safely improve their damage potential in PvP while keeping the class balanced overall.
So is there any chance of moving one of the mobility talents to a different tier from prep because as it is now its not a choice a least for arena you take prep period
Seriously, Daxx. Do you have any idea? Of the happiness? Flowing? Through heart? Johnny 5?

This level of communication exceeds all expectations. You've been missed.

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