February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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I think you're missing the point here: priests provided a very substantial amount of feedback and it resulted in nearly no changes to the grid and ability listings.

I'm not saying the existing abilities listed are bad. I like them. I've been defending them for the last three months against people who hated on the concept.

But we don't have a new class-wide ability that's not in the Talent Grid. Disc has no effective AoE healing abilities. Shadow has no ability to generate Shadow Orbs.

I know there's alpha and beta testing, and I know it'll be playable by release. But this class is unplayable as presented, and it's disheartening to see that our feedback resulted in exactly no changes.

Um there wasn't that much feedback on the first and second.

All I remember was the "zomg awesome priest tree" posts from the healing forums and other places.

Also look at the blue post above.

If you go to the MoP Forum along with dozens of small 2-10 post threads on priests there is also a nearly 500 post long thread about them. How is this 'very little'?
Ascendancy looks amazing for all 3 specs. Love it. I don't know if this is new but it appears chain heal no longer consumes riptide. Guess you guys liked that 4 piece. Can't wait for the new 90 talents!
02/15/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Practical
That's what I'm saying. Your tree looks amazing and the priest tree, by comparison, looks bland. And I'm not saying that to try and bring the paladin tree down - you guys deserve fun toys. But the priest tree is just...I don't even know how to bring it to words.

That's a little ironic. Before these changes went, Paladins looked at the Priest trees and were colored with envy a bit.

Path of the Devout is there I imagine for those moments in PVP/PVE where you *know* you can get away, but you just want some extra boost to safely protect yourself. That whole tier is dedicated to movement speed.

Divine Star, Vow of Unity and Void Shift are still fun spells. People grief with Leap of Faith, and that's just something that kind of happens - it's like asking Blizzard to chose between fun design or catering to derps who want to troll their raid.

Furthermore, Paladins have been asking for Sacred Shield for quite some time now. Call it nostalgia, or call it a really well designed spell - but it was very popular when it was around.

Our Level 75 Abilities are all tied to Avenging Wrath, so while it may seem like it's very fun (and I'm sure it is), try to remember that it's not all the time.

Finally, the last tier is something that I think is creative and really doesn't fit enough with the Priest toolkit to look over the aisle and say "I'm jelly, bro. :(" All the spells there have a short radius, have damage and healing properties and work very well with the overall look and feel of the Paladin class.

You have nothing to worry about, friend. Your priest class and mechanics look very clean.
Healing Forum MVP

I think it was the great feedback provided by paladins that got them to step up their game with the paladin trees. It's a shame the same wasn't applied to the priest trees.

As someone else pointed out, the tree has a very clear cookie cutter spec that I, and probably several other priests, can see forming. The talent you mentioned is indeed on a tier with movement speed buffs, but there's no way I'd take path of devout over the talent body and soul. 4 seconds is usually all you need to get out of something bad, plus the added benefit of a shield in there as well. As pointed out, levitate drops off if you get damaged by anything at all. Going into a fight knowing you can cast a shield on someone and have them be able to move and be safe from damage compared to casting levitate which removes the jump function, falls off from damage, and only offers a 25% buff compared to a 60% buff is no contest at all. Previously body and soul was relegated to holy priests as well, and now it's essentially being opened up to disc priests as well so its usage will skyrocket.

I hate to say any definitives but that is one of those talents that has no use at all and is absolutely eclipsed by the others in the tree.

"Fun" isn't necessarily conducive to "useful" most times. Lifegrip is a fun spell, but how often do priests remember to use it? The good ones certainly do, mind, but the rest probably have no idea where it is in their spellbook.

Divine star is going to depend on a few things, the most important of which is whether or not it's something the priest will be able to control or if it's going to come with all the awful pathing issues of say, a mage's flame orb. The last thing you want is to pop a healing CD and watch it fly off over into a corner and come back without hitting anybody at all.

With regards to void shift and certain other talents it's going to depend on if the talents in the builds mesh with each other. Will final prayer work with void shift? We'll have to wait and see. But then imagine having 3 priests, holy, disc, and shadow all in your raid group(assuming 25man comp) and all of them have vampiric dominance. That's going to be just a ton of passive healing flying around. I think about that and then I think about vow of unity and the fact that any damage taken to the target will effect me too and one of them seems more appealing than the other.

Lots of these things will require testing, so like I said, it's hard to judge either way until we can get into the beta and put it through its paces.

Additionally, most of the talents on the priest tree are talents we previously had anyway. So like I said about the familiarity - it's all still there. We still get serendipity, we still get instant flash heals, etc. That's not so much new as more of the same. And that's really fine, I guess. But there's nothing OMG revolutionary about it.

From a healing POV the class is obviously still going to be as solid as it is now. It's just not going to be any newer or different save for a few gimmick spells, which I guess is okay. I wouldn't play my priest now if I didn't enjoy it.

I just can't wait to get into the beta to really test things out. It's hard when all you're doing is speculating on something from a calculator on a website.
all I have to say is I do not care for it
I'm looking forward to the hunter changes! These talents look awesome! I know they may change some more before the release, but so far I like the direction things are going! Good job Blizzard!
So far I have seen posts from only 2 druids actually detailing what they think, more insight on druids would be amazing
Now that I've had a few minutes to clear my head, I feel like I can make more accurate, intelligent commentary overall. Apologies for the snarky-ish nature of my last post :-)

Mage: Wow. At first I was like "Ice Barrier on my Arcane mage? Heck yeah!" And then I noticed Temporal Shield. I'll have to actually play around with these once beta starts to see which is more practical, but just from a concept/"on paper" perspective, it looks very interesting.

Waiting until 77 for Slow is going to be a bit of a drag. Such a spec-defining ability should come sooner than late Northrend, IMO. That's part of the current problem in game design - spec-defining abilities come at 75+, giving players less time to get used to those abilities in a dungeon setting prior to max level/current content that I'd love to see changed.

Moving on, Paladins are looking better and better. Plus Light's Hammer makes me want to get the new dragon mount on my Paladin, fly up to the top of Stormwind Cathedral, and shout "I AM THOR!" :-P

Seriously though, that is a fantastic talent that's going to be vying for my attention against Execution Sentence. I'll probably get more use out of Light's Hammer in dungeons, but again, have to see how that pans out in beta/live.

Shamans: Cleanse as an Enhance spec ability? I would've thought, if this wasn't going to be Baseline anymore, that it would've been in Restoration. Honestly, people who play DPS specs generally don't want to be stuck watching for bad-stuff-removal. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad attitude, it's just the attitude I've seen in dungeons in the past. At least reconsider making it Resto, if not Class.

Fortifying Rain is a cool concept. I don't know how much magic damage there's going to be in MoP dungeons/raids, but it's a nice alternative to not having a DK in your group (I haven't looked at DK talents, so not sure if they still have Anti-magic Zone)

Astral Shift will make a nice "Oh crap!" ability for all specs, but in those rare instances where you're healing and things go sideways, tank goes down, and the Warrior/Paladin/Druid DPS needs a few seconds to swap to their shield or bear form to pull off you, this could be a life-saver.

Rogue: I'm not sure which talents I'm more excited about here. I giggled like a schoolgirl at the thought of Shadow Focus, being able to sap one target then immediately launch into a stunlock on the second without having to wait a second or two for energy to return to full, but my goodness, the possibilities with Subterfuge! And that's just the first tier >_>

Level 30 feels like you hit the nail on the head with the intent of choice vs. requirement. I say that because when I'm playing my rogue solo, I like to use KS even if it's less efficient than a damaging ability because I take less damage, and thus, less downtime. Nerve Strike really flows with that nicely.

The final tier is the hardest though. Shuriken's straight damage is a nice filler for when the tank won't stop waltzing with the boss(!), but dang if Anticipation isn't a beautiful thing for when you're at 4CP and you just know that if you hit a non-fnisher you're going to lose a point to the ether.

Anyway, that's my more-constructive-this-time criticism :)

Edit to add, far too late... Yes, I got KS and CS confused. Hadn't played my rogue for a couple of days. Sorry about that. >_> Nerve Strike still looks sexy though.
02/15/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Marathel
Um there wasn't that much feedback on the first and second.


Created after the second update, in the MoP forum.

That's almost 500 posts of discussion and debate on the matter, and it wasn't the only worthwhile thread created in that forum.

Clearly I'm not getting through to you, so I'll stop worrying about convincing you.
First off, Dk's lvl 87 move is EPIC.
Secondly, mage's tree is amazing and just makes me want to laugh at the oringinal MoP one that was released
Thirdly, Dk talent is SOOOO much better with the changes of giving pestilence and outbreak back to every dk no matter what.
Great job blizzard overall though blizzard, all the other tree's look pretty cool, except the priest lvl 87 move going away =(
Really seems to be an emphasis on PvP related stuff (I know hunters aren't finished, but the emphasis is still there, as before). Checked out my other classes, too, and they are kind of PvP-heavy, too.

As little as I am interested in doing end-game content with other players, I'm even less interested in PvP being at the forefront of the game. w/e though. I'll spend most of my time in MoP questing on alts and doing Cata content on this character.

DK - LvL 60 - Death Siphon - Has no cost, no recast timer, and is instant cast...

The death knight abilities Death Siphon, Soul Reaper, and Necrotic Strike cost 1 Death Rune. They are not free.

The calculator is not currently displaying that cost type (properly).
How are Arcane Mages supposed to regain mana now that Mage Armor doesn't increase mana regeneration? I see Rune of Power increases mana regen by quite a lot but it doesn't seem enough to regen mana when Arcane Mages are done with their "burn" phase especially since if you choose to pick it you are replacing Evocation. Any clarification on this would help.
Question: Why didn’t the priest tree change?
Answer: We are still in development. It is a challenge, when giving players a sneak peak at work in progress, to decide when to release what we have versus waiting to accumulate even more changes.

Q: Do Discipline priests have Prayer of Healing or not?
A: Our current design direction is this: Holy does AE healing with Prayer of Healing, and Discipline heals with (a much more powerful than today) Holy Nova. Divine Aegis would work with Holy Nova under this model. However, please see the question above. The priest tree is still in heavy development.

This is fair enough, and I'll take it as a good reason to stop speculating. I figured as much when I noticed so few changes, but it's good to hear it coming from you guys as well. All I can really say is how much I look forward to playing around with things in game.
Oh good lord, those last 3 Hunter talents are amazing!
It's going to be hard to choose between the 3 of them. D:
Keep working on the druid skill list and talent.

It is not "oh wow, this is a cool talent wait this one is even cooler when this happen"

02/15/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Lyth
Cold Snap seems kind of odd in that it is a talent that you'd only ever pick up if you were spec'd into frost. Would it not be better to have it as a blanket reset on all cooldowns?

All of the abilities reset by Cold Snap are baseline for all mages. Not to mention the instant heal. However, it would be nice if a fire and an arcane ability was also reset, to make it more of a viable choice for non-frost mages.
I liked the old talent trees because your Toon is more custom tailored to the user... It seems the new talent tree is or going to have more Toon's the same!!! This is going to have people knowing what to do on defensive and offensive PVP... I don't really like this talent tree I like custom tailored Toon's better!
Very concerned with the direction the changes are going for Druids...

I'm glad Feral Charge was jumped up to the first Tier to contend with other movement talents, but it replaced Tireless Pursuit rather than Feline Swiftness, which means that Feral Druids, who are already looking very gimped in PvP from our loss of effective Bear form (however justified for PvE it is), are going to have to choose between two movement talents that are currently vital, and as a result can't even think about getting the new "vanish."

In addition, that vanish, Displacer Beast, was massively nerfed. It no longer removes any DoTs. This makes it fairly useless for Restoration and Balance Druids, who originally were the most likely specs to want it over the two other talents in the Tier.

It seems as if we've lost Bash as a baseline Bear ability in exchange for Mighty Bash as a talent, which makes sense for a "CC tier," and gained Bear Hug as baseline instead, but Bear Hug is also listed as Guardian Only specialization, so is that a bug, or are we losing our baseline stun and not getting one to replace it?

Tier 90 is still very underwhelming, even with the cleaned up Dream of Cenarius. I just can't see anyone taking any of those talents besides Disentanglement. I love the attempts to turn Druids into a more hybrid class again, but Heart of the Wild's long cooldown combined with the lack of many baseline abilities in the new model (for example, only having two healing spells if you're not Restoration) makes me very skeptical as to the effectiveness of the talents.

Overally pretty disappointed. I love the new talent trees for many other specs, but it feels like, as usual, Druids are being mishandled due to lack of clear focus and coherency in the design philosophy. Take away most of our off-spec abilities, but give us talents to promote off-spec roles? It feels like two different teams are working on the class with a wall between them. I'm rooting for the more hybrid druid capabilities to make it to the finish line, but when Blizzard realizes the current model is gimped (which they will realize sooner or later) I have a bad feeling they'll just capitulate and make everything simpler again by removing the hybrid talents for some more generic "do your role better" ones.
02/15/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Velorette
I liked the old talent trees because your Toon is more custom tailored to the user... It seems the new talent tree is or going to have more Toon's the same!!! This is going to have people knowing what to do on defensive and offensive PVP... I don't really like this talent tree I like custom tailored Toon's better!

The "current" trees are not custom tailored, there is the right choices and the wrong choices which will make people laugh at you. You get 3 floater points on average that have almost no meaning. With the new tree's it won't destroy the problem, but there will be diversity.

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