February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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I have some concern not over the talent trees themselves but of some changes being made to certain class/specs...specifically prot warriors. The way I'm reading the trained skills, revenge's cooldown is being raised to 9 seconds, shield slam is still 6, and devastate is still 4.5 That leaves a lot of gaps in a normal tanking "rotation." One of the reasons I like to tank on my warrior is that there is, provided proper rage management, always an attack to perform. I do not like, for example, prot pallies because they're cooldown-based and not resource management based.

I don't deny that prot warriors don't have to manage their resource nearly as much as say, dps warriors, but I feel like this is a very large change in the playstyle of the protection warrior and makes them a bit more similar to paladins than I'm comfortable with.

Note that all this assumes HS/Cleave still work the same way they do now in that they are off gcd. If they are being reworked to be an actual gcd-triggering attack, I suppose that alleviates this issue. But as I'm reading it, I'm far from thrilled.

We are iterating a lot on tank rotations right now. We want rage (and all tank resources) to be something players actually use for mitigation, because we think that will be more fun than having a resource that gets ignored. Under this model, Protection warriors can’t have many DPS abilities that cost rage, because rage will be too valuable for Shield Block and Shield Barrier on fights where survival is a challenge. An ability with no resource cost needs some kind of cooldown or it will just be macro’ed and / or spammed, which isn’t a lot of fun.

Prot warriors have a lot of abilities to manage: Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Thunder Clap, Shield Block and so on, as well as several emergency buttons to handle situations such as streaming adds. We’re okay with melee specs having an occasional free GCD, as long as it doesn’t happen with frustrating regularity.

What about a short-timer emergency cooldown to replace Shield Block/Spell Block, as Shield Block has been moved to our "active mitigation" ability? It looks like warriors have lost their analogue to Barkskin/Divine Protection/Bone Shield, while other classes have kept their version. I'm worked about WotLK-era cooldown discrepancies cropping up again.

Also, is the "charge tier" of warrior talents here to stay? The distinction between Double Time and Juggernaut seems like splitting hairs pretty fine indeed in terms of offering two different choices.

It's really going to depend heavily on how they revamp the spell.

Starting with the name. HOLY nova?

You're still using Holy energy to cast the spell, yes? Priests only use Holy or Shadow energy, it seems like. There's not a Discipline energy.
So glad level 90 shaman talents are being changed. I knew you knew it needed fixing. Thank you.
I have two issues here.
-Making Blood DKs choose between Death Pact and Vampiric Blood might be a problem due to the fact that they are both legit CDs that we cant function correctly on our Stressful way of tanking without them. Unless they completely change the way Blood works.

...and now to the most important question that I have...
-In the name of Grand Apothecary Putress, WHY VILE SPEW?! Corpse Explosion was perfect!
Can you please go into further detail, even with a mountain of warnings about being in testing, about Holy Nova and Discipline Priests? Because I really, really, really don't want to have my only option for AOE healing be a point blank area of effect spell. It is a frightening concept on it's face

Please, anything? Something reassuring?
Awesome, new talents!

Firstly, I want to preface this by mentioning I already posted this on a paladin-specific thread in the MoP-specific forums, and I'm posting it here as well to illicit more discussion, I doubt mentioning this really means anything but I felt I should make note of it.

I'll be talking about this primarily from the perspective of a Holy paladin, so unless I state otherwise you can assume that's where I'm coming from. I'll start with a long-winded explanation of my concerned for the level 45 talent tier, starting with Selfless Healer.

First off, this isn't a conductive design choice for a holy paladin choosing this in PvE. Because judging costs mana (And it appears that the tooltip has been clarified for seals that they only proc at melee) we do it at very specific times to maintain our regen buff, spamming judgment is generally frowned upon--especially when you can spend that time actually using healing spells.

While the buff does increase the HPM of the spell but it feels a bit too non-fluidic. Simply put, a holy paladin's procs flow from one spell classification into another, you'll cast judgement twice and then you'll be put in a situation where you cannot use judgement until you cast FoL that feels kinda clunky. I don't know, maybe this is all just me being a curmudgeon, maybe it plays better than it sounds.

From a pvp perspective I can see it working, I guess. It's a minor concern but how does this work with Infusion? Can a paladin just cast two instant FoLs in a row? Do you want paladins to have that much freedom with instant-cast healing pvp? Overall, though, I just don't feel myself really liking this choice in a raiding environment.

Moving on, Eternal Flame is a problem. Here's the thing, and this applies to Holy Shield as well, holy power doesn't work in a way where you can just have two single-target heals, especially when, looking down the tree, you're giving us access to other types of HoTs. I'm -always- going to be using the spell that does the most healing, and by the looks of it that would be WoG. Would you give a rogue the option of a different finisher that ultimately does less damage? Of course not, and while you could argue the concern of overhealing, paladins handle WoG in single stacks, usually, so chances of overhealing is fairly low.

The only "Healing"-oriented holy power alternative I can suggest is a sort of Inquisition buff that increases the healing of our mana-based spells by a % and duration per holy power, -that- would be far more engaging a choice.

Finally, Sacred shield... OMG you changed it to be the original, wrath-era Sacred shield, SQUEEEEE! ...Sorry, I see nothing wrong with this talent, my only problem is it needs to have at least a minuet duration, or else holy paladins are going to have way too much buff upkeep on their hands.

That was the only tier I had specific problems with, I'll move on now to more specific abilities.

Hand of Purity is amusing, it's a hand spell specifically designed to annoy affliction warlocks, HA! Unless there's a PvE encounter that specifically does large amounts of periodic damage to particular targets I'm not really going to choose it over the much more useful clemency ability, though.

Speaking of hand spells, Hand of Salvation is back! Unchanged, though... I'm fairly certain nobody missed Hand of Salvation when it disappeared, although it did make our "Hand" toolkit rather stark. The problem is that threat isn't a major issue these days, the bigger issue is Aggro, I think you should change this to the glyphed version by default, which would make it useful without cluttering our glyph table.

Devotion aura--once named Aura mastery--has a slight issue, I think it should cover all magic damage, a new player would never understand that the reason it only protects from certain schools of magic is due to an anachronism regarding auras that no longer exists, and really it's just that: an anachronism.

On that subject, I think we need to talk about raid utility. First off, I'm glad that warriors are getting two raid cooldowns, they look really interesting and cool! Problem is, only one Paladin spec is getting a singe raid cooldown and from a class narrative perspective this is glaringly inconsistent--why are warriors more "inspiring" to their raid than paladins? I don't want to go back to the buff-botting era as much as anyone but with the removal of auras we're pushing further and further away from the concept that paladins are great for empowering your group, that's the underlying point of a lawful good class, and while as a holy paladin this doesn't adversely affect me I'd hate to see ret paladins put on bench for classes that can provide more for the whole raid.

Back onto healing, I still don't see Daybreak anywhere. I'm assuming, unless stated to the contrary, that you turned it into a glyph and made it also affect Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous. Losing it entirely would be rather detrimental to the rotational "Flow" of holy paladins but I can understand if there's a desire for (Optional) simplification by its absence from the holy class.

That's all I really have to say at this time, everything else I haven't thought on enough, or honestly can't determine its value outside of actually testing it (Unbreakable Spirit, for example).

Impending victory gets better after a victory? Suggest keeping it as victory rush. Also seems much better than alternatives for any playstyle and role (except potentially pvp).

I like the idea of a warrior choosing between bladestorm and shockwave, but it isn't going to be a choice... 1H weapon: shockwave or avatar, 2H weapon: bladestorm or avatar.

Staggering shout: I know what snare and root mean, but many experienced players still don't. Ditch the jargon!


Thrill of the hunt seems much much better than fervor. I'm guessing it'll pan out to be a clear pve dps choice. It is also a static improvement power that doesn't really change the way you play... and is thus out of line with the new talent philosophy.

Transmorph trap seems very silly... it's not really something I can even wrap my head around. Let the mages keep polymorph!

Iron Hawk... seems to me to be the clear choice for the tier. It's a passive buff that will both remove a decision and will make raid balancing more difficult... unless direct damage means damage taken when the hunter is the sole target of a spell or attack? In this case it's next to useless except for people who like to pvp but don't like to move.

Disengage is good times, but linking a heal to it seems ill-advised to me. Fine for pvp, but it will result in some great silliness for raid situations if it is viable.

Powershot sounds like a great time. Glaive toss sounds like it'll be fun, but you should probably specify that you mean the Krull "glaive"... since what most people think of when they hear "glaives" isn't exactly aerodynamic. Shannox would be a lot harder if his polearm came back to him. :P
Heylo. One early question stemming from the raging discussion in the rogue forums (where very little of the conversation is revolving around that whole Prep-Step thingamabobber, incidentally):

Now that we have a more specific sense of what's going on with Deadly/Instant Poison, it's looking like the PPH mechanic is going the way of the dodo. (It wouldn't be missed, if that's the case.) But if PPM is the wave of the future, what does this mean for the design idea around rogue weapons, particularly in the main hand? Are we potentially looking at the end of the 1.8/1.4 dagger disparity for Assassination and Subtlety rogues?
What happened to Fire Orb? *pouts* I love that spell. And the Arcane version of it sounded fun, too. :<

But apart from that, I love the new stuff for Mages! :D

Frozen Orb is a level 84 spell specific to Frost. Looking at the other trees, they don't have a level 84 spell. Maybe they're finding a way to tweak the spells and put them back in under new names or something?
Some clarification on rogues:

Shiv applies concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available in the calculator. They are as follows:

  • Crippling Poison reduces the target’s speed by 70% for 12 seconds.
  • Mind-Numbing Poison increases the casting time of an enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.
  • Wound Poison reduces the target’s healing received by 50% for 6 seconds.
  • Leeching Poison instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health.
  • Paralytic Poison roots the target in place for 4 seconds.
  • I love you Blizzard. MoP is gonna be insane.
    I'm quite happy to see the return of Deep Wounds for warriors (even if it replaces Rend, seemingly) - I am curious though, why Fury continues to be excluded from Blood and Thunder? I know there's a new 'bleed' cooldown but it just seems like a strange design decision to exclude the most 'reckless' spec of the 3 from meaningful/consistent bleed-over-time damage.

    Having said that... some of these new talents look INSANELY FUN. I'm dying for beta to start!!!
    Question: Why didn’t the priest tree change?
    Answer: We are still in development. It is a challenge, when giving players a sneak peak at work in progress, to decide when to release what we have versus waiting to accumulate even more changes.

    Q: Do Discipline priests have Prayer of Healing or not?
    A: Our current design direction is this: Holy does AE healing with Prayer of Healing, and Discipline heals with (a much more powerful than today) Holy Nova. Divine Aegis would work with Holy Nova under this model. However, please see the question above. The priest tree is still in heavy development.

    Hopefully the priest community is giving you feedback that giving Disc only one AOE spell is a bad idea. If they aren't, let me spell out why: you're giving every other class a ranged AOE heal, and you probably won't be altering your raid/encounter designs to accomodate a healer that can't do effective ranged AOE healing. Do you expect ranged to be hanging out close to melee now? I'm totally cool with Holy Nova doing something, but one of those things shouldn't be "trying to use it as your only AOE healing option".
    02/15/2012 03:16 PMPosted by Ahti
    What about a short-timer emergency cooldown to replace Shield Block/Spell Block, as Shield Block has been moved to our "active mitigation" ability? It looks like warriors have lost their analogue to Barkskin/Divine Protection/Bone Shield, while other classes have kept their version. I'm worked about WotLK-era cooldown discrepancies cropping up again.

    Eh paladins also lost holy shield. And they gave us a 2nd shield wall for magic on a 1.5min cd, granted still weaker then DP, and on a longer CD to boot.
    Soul Reaper looks incredibly interesting and is a unique take on an execute ability. Definitely excited to play around with it during beta. +1

    As for the talents, they seem to be more or less the same. The final tier, when compared to the reworked final tiers of mages/locks/hunters/warriors, is disappointing. I understand that I haven't played around with it, but I can't help but thinking that they just lack the impact of say, being able to cast while moving or having no mana regen, but being able to evocate without a cooldown. They don't impact DK gameplay in any significant way and they definitely seem skewed toward being PvP oriented talents while other classes have talents that alter their PvE play style. For instance, warriors, another hybrid class, have to choose between 3 damage talents that will undoubtedly have pros and cons on a per fight basis and alter the way they play - and that to me seems like what the goal should be across the board. It's troubling considering that after a rework, the final tier remained unchanged. They should be moved down to Tier1 (which should be removed) and a Tier6 with some diverse talents should be implemented. It feels horribly gimped when compared to classes with compelling choices that genuinely are unique and game changing.

    As for the rest of the talents, without knowing CDs or Rune costs, it appears as though there are going to be some tiers with easy choices.

    Tier 1 - Looking at it, Roiliing Blood just means you gain a small amount of dmg when you want to Pest. Vile Spew is cool in that it is a range Pest, but it has the limitation of requiring an undead minion so it'll only be useful when you have your ghoul up (a rather glaring limitation). I can't really figure out what the point of Unholy Blight is unless "stinging" means damage. None of these talents are exciting or particularly useful. By far the worst tier.

    Tier 2 - Utility Tier. Lichborne is Lichborne. AMZ is AMZ. Icy Grip is redundant for PvP (grip chains) and doesn't really seem like it'd be that much more useful in PvE. You'd never take this talent ever when compared to the others - for PvP or PvE (always zone or Lichborne).

    Tier 3 - Another Utility Tier. Mostly interesting for PvP where the choice will be tough. Death's Advance is good since DKs get snared quite easily. Chillblains is essential for melee comps. Asphyxiate will be useful for comps that don't have hard CC and it reduces the CD. Overall, I think it's going to come down to whether or not you have a freedom on your team. Definitely the toughest choice of the talent tiers thus far. For PvE, none of these things matter much at all. Having DA for Al'Akir would have been nice, but you can just AMS the slow. We used Chillblains probably 3-4 times this expansion for PvE. Asphyxiate will be largely redundant in a PvE setting where just about everyone can root/snare/silence/stun/etc.

    Tier 4 - Utility Tier. Death Pact not killing your minion is a welcome change. Death Siphon is awesome! No CD no cost! Obviously not properly done yet. Could be interesting but can't really determine anything without knowing CD/cost. Vamp Blood is Vamp Blood. Vamp Blood will be great in PvE for a damage burst (hit it and ds 2x and your healers won't have to heal you). It's going to be the overwhelming favorite of this tier for PvE and for PvP.

    Tier 5 - This would require some math, but there's going to be a "right" answer here eventually. RE will always remain clunky - you have to "game" runes in order to get what you want - since it's so RNG dependent. I can't count how many times I've gotten a rune that I don't need and I can't use an ability I have a proc for. BT is interesting in that it basically adds 1 rune per RP bar to your DPS cycle. Since it's one death rune though, it's not going to drastically impact burst that much (1 extra oblit per 2 RP bars for frost, 1 SS per RP bar for UH, and 1 DS per 2 RP bars for blood). The idea is in the right place though. My gut tells me that RE will be the winner here for PvE and you'll want BT for UH PvP and RC for frost PvE. Really hope this tier gets looked at as it's the most important one of all the tiers in terms of gameplay.

    Tier 6 - I've gone over why I don't think this tier stacks up to the other classes. But, I wanted to offer some suggestions. Maybe have a talent that adds a cleave component to SS for UH or Oblit for Frost (50% reduced damage). Another talent could be: "Activate this talent to reset the cooldown on Gargoyle and Pillar of Frost". Or, a talent that does different things if you activate it in different presences. For instance: Talent X: You activate this to gain the following: In blood presence (lasts 10 seconds) - your deathstrikes heal for 50% less but shield for 50% more. In UH presence (lasts 10 seconds) - your SS deals 50% more frost damage and oblit now deals an additional 50% damage as shadow damage (to avoid scaling problems later in the xpac with mastery). In Frost presence (lasts 20 seconds) - howling blast no longer damages additional targets but instead deals 200% damage. Death Coil infects your target with a dot that deals 20% of the DC damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds but rolls like ignite (could stack a big dot). Obviously these talents I described are ones I just thought up while writing this post and probably have glaring balance issues, but they all seem to be fairly viable and definitely relevant for PvE and PvP. I like the idea of tying the presences of DKs into something relevant that changes gameplay. Like, sure I want the frost part of the CD but that also means I have to give up my quick GCDs etc. To me that's the most interesting type of talent there is - one that changes things up and has obvious ups and downs.

    I understand that I'm judging these talents without trying them and the final tier could be as unique, exciting, and game changing as say the mage talents, but I can't help but feel as though they just aren't.
    I play mostly Druids and Warlocks.

    I like about half of the tiers for Druids but still meh - doesnt perk me up.

    The lock tree is making me pretty happy though
    Rogue Questions.

    • Is deadly poison supposed to fall back to instant poison after it's first infliction? Why do we even have instant then?
    • Shuriken Toss, will this apply poison from the ranged weapon slot?
    • Anticipation: Will we be able to track the extra combo points that we'd otherwise have no way to track?
    • Versatility, super lackluster, feels like we need to press a button to make up for a design flaw in the class. Combo points stacking on the target instead of the rogue really hurt us. This legacy design seems to be something every other class has shed yet we see taken to the very top of our tree? Can we just get rid of the need to use redirect already? I would rather only have 2 choices at the top of the tree, and have combo points stack on me instead of on the enemy than have to press this inane button every time I switch a target.
    I see Might of the Frozen Wastes in the frost abilities, but where's my Nerves of Cold Steel??? Am I just missing it somewhere, because I'm not seeing anything dual-wieldy... *grumble*

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