February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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Why was Displacer beast changed to drastically!?

I loved the "Blink in a random direction putting you in cat form and stealth while removing all dots"
i dont know how to start this but well

first of all the first talent calculator that you relased was AWESOME for locks, you put there some of the most needed change, and know u just turn the whole talents calculator in a big mess up

i will just point at my favorite spec (destruction) and here are some BIG issues and will give some feedback I HOPE U READ :

1. you took away shadoflame that its our main tool of kiting this is killing our chance to get away from a melee in pvp also your giving shadowfury 30 sec cd i dont know why its have no reason to be cuse its will be our second and last source of cc

1a. please gave us back shadowflame its our main kiting tool you cant take it away w/o giving us another slow nothing will stop a melee for butchering us to the death if hes not slowed cuse we are also losing deathcoil you could spec it but shadow fury or howl of terror are just way better and please for the love of god put shadowfury again to 20 sec insted of 30

2. you are nerfing conflagrate to the worse level possible, separating conflagre from immolate dmgs or from infernal embers mechanics its will do the same dmgs as the early conflagrate in woltk it will only be used for the slow not to pull some dmgs or pressure

2a. just attached conflagrate to immolate or attached to soul leach or gain benefist from infernal embers Please

3. you are taking backdraft away: how im suppouse to cast in arena w/o the haste buff of back draff how im suppouse to build infernal embers if i cant complete a cast from incinarate cuse its jsut to loing O.O

3.a i guess your making it a glyph I HOPE of that but wasting a glyph for a thing that it was in the talent trees make like no sense instend of that you could make a glyph that help us with our main problem mobility( i will get tehre in a bit)

4. infernal embers, it was great when they announce it i was really exited cuse its was a could mechanic that increse your dmgs and make you pull the big nuke that the spec needed but know its doing that but only with soulfire. How are we suppouse to cast soulfire in arena? 4sec cast spell is way TO BIG to get out really, infernal ember also are dealing dmgs to us and increase for every infernal ember you have so if you builds some from casting incinarate u wont be able to relese it, and at the end its just goign to kill you

4a. just attached IB to conflagrate again or make another source of realese via dmgs

5. embers tap, i guess this will be used like life tap but with embers like use tap an ember and restore 20% of your hp SOUNDS NICE, but when the only way to realse embers is via soulfire and embers tap it will force you in pvp to tap your embers to not get killed by them so destruction warlocks in pvp will become like kinda of tank? or something?

5a. its a really nice mechanic just add another way to realse embers via dmgs so we aint gonna use this just for saving us from get killed by embers

6. destructive influence. i hate this talent i always did just cuse the reasone its cuse its make us pet dependents to use soulfire that its will our main nuke i know u want to give our pet some use but not like this, with this talent we are becoming extremely dependent from our pets and we are not focused on pet right? we are not demonology warlocks so pick take this way.

also this will promote the pet butchering in pvp my pet will always focused down so i cant use MY MAIN NUKE and if u wanna make this work for pvp and make us viable its would be like: every time your pet hits a target your soulfire cast time is reduce to 1.5 or 2 secs, so this sounds ridiculous and extremly face rolling so plz jsut take it away

6a. take it away save the day

7. soulfire as our main nuke, at the moment or main nukes are chaosbolt and conflagrate they hit for nothing special now so they was fixing this by removing chasobolt and attaching col!@@rate to infernal embers so we could have plenty of choises to deal heavy dmgs, but know with only soulfire as our big dmgs source we aint gonna be able to pull decent dmgs cuse its a 4sec spell u cant cast that in arena and i alrdy explain the issues of the talent destructive influence

7a. just give soulfire a reduce cast time or another way to cast it instanly this could be via chaosbolt ( if u wanna bring back the spell) or fel flame or conflagrate something like

1.every time your chaosbolt hits apply a buff called "chaotic fire" when its reach 2 or 3 stacks its made your next soulfire instan.

2.every you cast fel flame on a immolated target have x chance to made your next soulfire instan cast,

3. just something simple like when you hit a non crit conflagrate your next soul fire will be an instan cast

8. the lack of mobility, we have no source of mobility besides portal or the new burning rush and kil jaiden cunning
( im not putting the new portal thing here cuse i dont know if we could use it in arena).

burning rush its not a viable mobility choise for pvp, and its focused on pvp becouse why you want this for pve if u have demonic circle? well the thing its that its drain to much hp EVERY SECOND for just 50% yeah its sounds nice but melees have a 50% but rogues that have 70% also mage can counter this talent with frost bolt so its really easy to counter for his expensive cost

kil jaiden cunning its really a bad talent let me use an example you need to nuke a target that its running from you and u get slowed every time and hes getting away you pop kiljaiden cunning and what? cast a 4sec incinerate? 8 secs soulfire even 3secs immolate? its make no sense at all this talent must be changed its really REALLY bad

8a. you can fix kil jaiden cunning by letting us cast in the normal time but doing 20% less dmgs .

taking away hp, i dont mind to take away hp for this like i dont mind to take away hp for casting blood fear just saying cuse its looks like you are really enjoying the mechanic of high risk/big reward for lock its really sounds cool but allow us to get the reward plz

9. our lvl 90 talent are really bad.

archimondes vengace, its useless for pvp and its pvp oriented cuse theres no reason for this in pve, the reason is cuse we actuallly have a talent like that called bane of havoc and its useless for pvp really useless is usable some time in pve yeah but this wont work on pve cuse mob are suppouse to hit the tank and warlocks arent tanks so, 30% of another dmgs is just to low hitting on a full resil target thats why bane of havoc doesnt work in pvp unless you chage resill to allow us to deal more dmgs then its could be work other wise its must be change

kil jaiden cunning, lol 8 secs soulfire good luck with that

mannaroths fury, this is the only decent one and its just cue in destro tre have a spell callent fire and brimstone and make our nukes aoe yeah its really nice but not for a lvl 90 talent please make it better

9a. i dont have a feedback for new talents im sry but really a change in these teir its must be done look you gave mage/rogues and hunters really awesome lvl 90 talents im not qqing about it its grave that they finally got a decent lvl 90 talents but you should you must bring us to the same level

10. your making the warlock wasted alot of hp to use their spells or mechanic that put us in a huge danger in pvp in, pve doesnt matter cuse you will always have a healer watching for you (im not saying go suicide the healer will take care no but its less risky than pvp please lets be smart here) so please unless u give us a huge way to reg health frequently dont put this mechanic of high rishk/mediocre reward out

10a. change the mechanic of give us a huge souch of healing besies the healers 10% from fel armor aint gonna be much for sure

and for pve im just gonna say this destro locks are going to be the next arcane mages we will have and incredible boring rotation thats all i have to say for pve its not much but its just the true

im sorry for my grammar its could be bad but i hope you get the point also i didnt have the time for posting about aff or demo issues there are many issues for these specs but my favorite its destruction and its seems like the worse to me at the momnet i hope you read and take this seriusly i dont wanna have my destruction lock being useless for another expancion its will make me quit this game and i dont wanna reach that point

and yes my grammar is bad but english isnt my first language and i guess i have learned alot in just 4 monts i hope you get the idea here maybe i shouldnt not being posting here but i wont take sit and watch my favorite spec/class being useless for another expa
Why do Frost Death Knights now benefit from the increased haste and physical vulnerability and Unholy DK's only get physical vulnerability , and what happened to Corpse Explosion D:?

I was really excited to Corpse Explosion coming back
The druid talents as they stand really leave me with a mixed response. I love both PVE and PVP, so I will admit, they make me really excited in terms of PVP, but when it comes to PVE, I am just left confused. It really feels like the talents were specifically designed with an intense focus on PVP.

I will say this again. You guys hit it out of the park for PVP (with a couple small caveats). I think I will be having a blast in PVP with all these new toys... but wow.. I honestly feel like as good as it is for PVP, it is equally bad for PVE. Even the small glimmers of hope just leave me frustrated, and in the end I am left pretty confused and not very excited for MoP from a PVE perspective.

I play both feral and restoration heavily, but for the sake of this I will stick to mostly the raiding restoration druid viewpoint, as it is my main spec and is where I was also left the most confused as to the goals. Though I will say that beyond guardian in some places, I got the same general feeling for pretty much all the druid specs when it came to their utilization in PVE.

15 - Feline Swiftness - Displacer Beat - Wild Charge

Feral swiftness is the only real PVE option here, while being a very nice PVP option to boot. Speed will always work in any aspect of the game.

Both displacer beast and wild charge are very interesting PVP options. But in terms of restoration PVE, I do not see much if any use. Wild charge may seem neat at first, as a reverse life grip, but I honestly don't see how leaping to another player would serve a purpose in a raiding environment as a healer.

In the end I count 1 PVE resto option and 3 PVP options.

30 - Nature's Swiftness - Renewal - Cenarion Ward

As a resto druid, this tier made me perk up, but it is also frustrating because though I see a potential new and interesting option is available (cenarion ward), we would have to sacrifice what I consider a core current talent to use it (nature's swiftness). Without more information, cenarion ward seems like it could be a potential tank healing cooldown. But it is obvious that both these talents are great options for PVP. Additionally, Renewal really appears to only be viable for PVP. A personal cool-down like this, is just not really an option for PVE, especially one that is reactive and fairly weak... I would hesitate even as guardian to grab it over ward.

So in the end I see 2 potential PVE options for a resto druid, and 3 PVP options.

45 - Faerie Swarm - Mass Entanglement - Typhoon

As a raiding resto druid, this tier just makes me confused. There is nothing here that is appealing in any way beyond some gimmicky fight where I might need to knock-back or root adds. I can't even remember a fight beyond maybe H. Rag where I would even think of using either a root or knock-back this whole expansion.... and even then it would be questionable if you would want a healer wasting GCDs or positioning for that. As for faerie fire.. again.. just this is a talent that is not needed in PVE for a resto druid, while being awesome from a PVP perspective..

Honestly, all these options are exciting for PVP, I would have a blast with them there.

But for PVE I count 0 worthwhile options...

60 - Soul of the Forest - Incarnation - Force of Nature

This is the second frustrating tier for a raiding resto druid. Like at 30, I perk up at a new interesting option (Soul of The Forest), which really looks like it could give a bit of nice burst healing that we druids crave, only to realize it really is not a choice I can make. As I quickly see that it is right next to the core, and very much mandatory ToL. I also see the possibility of some healing pets...? Sounds like fun and I want to know more... oh but wait.. ToL.

In the end I count 3 interesting resto PVE options, and 3 PVP options, but in reality there is little choice. With ToL in there.... it really is a false choice for a raiding druid.

Again this tier is the most frustrating, as it feels like the 3 best PVE resto options in the whole talent tree are on one single tier, and a tier with a core and mandatory cooldown. They need to be broken up.

75 - Disorienting Roar - Ursol's Vortex - Mighty Bash

Like the 45 tier, this is another that is just confusing for a raiding resto druid. Not one talent here will really benefit a raiding resto druid. This is all about control, and again, I could count the times the times on a couple fingers this expansion that any spec besides guardian would be called upon to need this in PVE, if at all.

But there is no mistaking, all three are superb PVP talents. I want to try them all come arena.. but as a raiding resto druid, I am just left confused.

So I count 0 PVE options for a resto druid and 3 awesome PVP talents.

90 - Heart of the Wild - Dream of Cenarius - Disentanglement

So here comes the closer... and I think every PVE focused druid of any specs spec is just left confused and wondering what the goal is here. There really is no option besides becoming a forced mid-raid hybrid for a PVE player.... which has never been viable. Being our final most "exciting" tier.. it really ends up being anything but that from a PVE perspective. The idea of switching roles for 45 seconds, to a weak watered down version with half the needed abilities, or constantly being forced to use ineffective and 'filler" spells of another spec in order buff your own IS NOT INTERESTING GAME PLAY. And disentanglement is obviously a PVP talent, no real discussion needed.

Now let me say one thing, this tier again is AMAZING for PVP. All three options are really interesting, all really promote role switching, which is a very important part of PVP. Being a resto spec that can put out a solid burst of damage to finish another player is different story, or mixing in a wrath for some increased healing, or just picking straight up disentanglement with a combined healing proc. All fit very differently in PVP, where the ability to damage AND heal have always been much more viable, and even necessary.

But for PVE... NO. Like really... NO. This hybrid mentality in PVE has never worked or ever been viable. I should really not even have to explain. I get the attempt at bringing druid back to a hybrid feeling.... but please Blizzard this is just not going to work in PVE and you know it.

So here I count 0 viable PVE options and 3 awesome PVP options.

In Summary:

My totals are 6 worthwhile talents for a PVE resto druid (of which 3 are countered by 2 current core current talents), and literally every single talent (all 18) as worthwhile and interesting for PVP.

So in reality, if a raiding resto druid keeps his current ToL and Nature's swiftness... which I see happening... all we literally have to look forward to in this new MOP talent system is a flat 15% speed boost. All I can say is that I am underwhelmed : /

Really it is quite dramatic, it feels like this whole talent tree for druids was designed specifically for PVP. I look at it as a PVE focused player and see little to anything to help me play or make any real choices at all. There is less customization than I have ever seen for a druid, I literally feel like I have to pick talents hoping for some gimmicky fight I might someday find a use for them on. There are three whole tiers that don't even appear to have a single worthwhile option, and the two I do get a bit excited, I am forced to pick back up core existing talents.

While half of me is saying...YESSSSSS... the other half who will be raiding is left very very confused as to what the thought process and goals were for the class in a PVE environment.

Possible solutions:

A simple solution may be just moving some of the more interesting talents that have some viability for PVE, such as Soul of the Forest, Force of Nature, and Cenarion Ward, into different tiers. Obvious choices would be to switch them into the 45 and 75 teirs, which are already almost entirely PVP oriented.

The 90 tier just flat out needs some re-thinking. It is the one teir that is literally making me possibly want to switch classes, if this is really the direction you want to take druids. Forcing us to play handicapped weak hybrid roles is not interesting or dynamic game play.

In conclusion, from a PVE perspective, I think he 45, 75 and 90 tiers really need some love/work. All three are really focused on PVP, with literally no PVE considerations to be made. And the weird hybrid focus in 90 is just never going mesh in PVE. Each of these tiers desperately need to have an option that makes sense for a raiding druid. Where other classes get talents that help their core raiding abilities, it feels like druids are left with a bunch of control and survivability options, which while great for PVP, fall flat and have no real place in PVE.
Having only looked through Warriors, Shamans, and Paladins so far, I can only say one thing... SQUEE! Translation - this stuff looks amazing and I can't wait to give it a good work-over. Ascendants as a Shammy ability is going to be killer, can't wait to see what else you do with my favorite class, the weapon swing speed increase and passive mana regen abilities for Ret are things that have been needed for awhile(I can't help thinking of Crusader's Zeal along the same lines as Reckoning in the current Prot tree), and Arms is gonna be an interesting beast as I notice Rend doesn't exist anymore while Deep Wounds is being applied directly by Mortal Strike. Then, at 46, here comes Blood and Thunder(which currently spreads Rend to all targets via Thunder Clap) which makes Thunder Clap an AoE Deep Wounds, cleaning up an extra step by not needing Rend on the main target first. It's a bit more streamlined and less tedious, not that Arms' rotation really bothered me anyway, and giving me more weapons at my disposal, such as Incite, which I skipped so I could have Executioner and Rude Interruption. And thank you for not making Bladestorm a level 90 talent. THANK YOU. It'll be strange not popping Rend anymore, but meh.

Anyway, seeing these talents just gives me lots to look forward to, so back to the calc I go!

Edit: As noted below me, I hadn't realized Throwdown was missing. Eeech, that I'm hoping is just an oversight and not intended. I certainly make use of it often and would hate to see it go. =o\ Intimidating isn't one I use too often, but it's still something that shouldn't go either.
The 8 second cd on Dispel Magic is an absolutely terrible idea. Most raid debuffs tick for increasing damage every second they are on a player. But we're unable to do anything about that for 8 seconds?? Seriously?
I really truly enjoy the whole philosophy behind the new talent system. But here are my likes and concerns with priests, primarily shadow.

I like the removal of vampiric embrance and giving vampiric touch both healing and mana regen. I'm please that I now have one less spell to click after being rezed in a BG. And I"m also pleased that as long as I have VT on a target, I will be regenerating mana. VE had only become an auto spell, so it's nice see it transfromed into VT and making VT more then just a DoT spell.

Mind Blast being a proc type spell for shadow as appose to a static cooldown spell, is really going to add a lot fun to the rotation.

I'm also hoping that mana burn, not being listed, is a spell no longer in the game. I've never been a fan of that spell, I be happy to see it go.

The lack of healing spells for shadow disappoints me. But I understand the reason for it, and I will adjust. But nonetheless, I'm still unhappy that I will be unable to help heal the raid or a BG outside of flash heal.

Path of the Devout, I can see some uses for it, but I honestly have hard time seeing any priest picking that over the other 2 in any situation. If all 3 of the level 30 talents removed all movement impairing effects, then I would have a hard time picking which I would wanting or thought was best.

Lastly, I'm looking forward to any new changes you have for priests, and can't wait to test everything out when the beta comes out.

Not even close. What you're suggesting isn't even a form of CC. It won't stop a melee from beating on your healer and it won't keep a target in range so you can actually try and kill them. I don't think you fully understand that you are offhandedly calling for the neutering of the class's only reliable CC. The only other CC the class will have access to is Repentance, which is a talent on the same tier as the stun. You seem to be vastly underestimating how devastating of a nerf you're asking for here.

Even if its a 4 second stun with 30% damage reduction that lasts 8 seconds? You can still beat on the target all you want for 4 seconds and when they get unstunned, or trinket out of it, they have reduced damage by 30% for 8 seconds.

clearly this is a mage that doesnt know he can blink out of stuns blink 15 sec cd> any stun
Frustrating to see that there is a shaman talent that is a nerfed form of a warlock spell. Should a spell from one class really be the same as a talent of another class, and an improved version of that talent?

Shaman talent-2 min cooldown 50% damage reduction with damage done and healing done reduced by 30%for 6sec.


Warlock spell-3 min cooldown 50% damage reduction and immunity to interrupts for 12sec no negative side effects.

Are they just ignoring this, or do they think its fair/justifiable? I know these are still in the works but that kind of frustrating to see, and its been like that since the talents were first put up here.
as a resto PvE druid, i dont see to many talents that help me do my job (maybe 3, and 2 of them are on the same tier), comaired to the many talents that priests or pallies get that buff healing or mana regen or group dmg reduction. maybe a class with 4 specs should have 4 pillars?

all the talents feel like im being made to pvp, which i dont on this character. need moar pve stuff!
Not impressed with the lack of Moonkin abilities and talents. Terrible. The first two tiers alone have absolutely nothing beneficial for Balance. "Wild Charge"? Big deal, I can "bound" backwards by pressing my spacebar or pushing "S".

Blizzard, this is awful. Where are my PvE talents? Where are there moonkin talents that actually benefit me?

Dislike tree ents being used in all specs.

As of right now, Resto and Balance druid talents are way past broken.
i love the lvl90 talents not sure which will be more benificial till we see MoP so i cant choose for now
Just started leveling a priest for the 15th time and i see myself actually playing through this time because i'm in love with disc atm the ability to heal people for 100%(or 50% for you) of the damage you deal with smite and holy fire is awesome i love healing dungeon runs through just dps i have to use a bubble here and there and i'm never top damage but no one dies and i really like that damage dealing/healing aspect

If it works like Dark Simulcrum - the new ability will overwrite Symbiosis on your action bar

Here's the process:

  • The Druid will select a raid or party member and cast Symbiosis on them.
  • The target cannot be another Druid.
  • The target gains a buff that tells them what spell they have temporarily learned, and that spell temporarily appears in their spellbook, and they can drag it to an action bar.
  • The Druid’s Symbiosis button will become the ability they gained from the target class.
  • The Symbiosis link is cancelled if: the Druid clicks off the Symbiosis buff, or the Druid or the target changes continents or enters or exits an instance, or the Druid or the target changes talent specializations.
  • Symbiosis fails to cast if Symbiosis is already active on that target.
  • Symbiosis cannot be cast in combat.
  • For the non-Druid target, the icon will revert to a placeholder (uncastable) Symbiosis icon when Symbiosis ends, but will become the Symbiosis-granted ability again the next time Symbiosis is cast on that target.
  • The ability gained from Symbiosis is always something chosen to match the Druid’s specialization and the target’s combat role.
  • The target always gets the same spell unless they change combat roles. A Druid of a given specialization always gets the same spell from each different class. If there is a change of specs, there is a change of spell.
  • Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)

    Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
    Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
    Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
    Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
    Hunter: Dash
    Warlock: Rejuvenation
    Holy Paladin: Rebirth
    Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
    Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam

    There are a lot more coming, but we'll keep some surprises for now, and many are still subject to change after testing.*

    *Including all of those just listed.

    Holy Paladin: Rebirth but....only 1 battle rez .....in 10man raids... so.... how would this help?
    02/16/2012 04:38 AMPosted by Berri
    Holy Paladin: Rebirth but....only 1 battle rez .....in 10man raids... so.... how would this help?

    Depends on your raid make up. I could see 10mans running with only one druid, no DKs or Locks now and it'll be more likely in MoP when there are 11 classes. So in such a comp, it would be useful if there are concerns about people dying and it's possible for the druid to die. This is assuming that no one else gets the option to bring a brez without needing a druid. It should be stated this should only be a factor in 10s, I'd be shocked if a non-fail 25man didn't have multiple brezs available.

    That said, it's really limited and niche, so they probably should change that one to something else.
    With Shuriken toss, I may just roll a rogue to be a ninja.
    I'm not really sure what the devs are thinking but the new mechanic they came out with in the most recent talent calculator, shooting multiple things that happen to be in a straight line with you, seems incredibly clunky, luck-based, and unlike anything else in the game. On raid bosses it obviously will only have use when there are adds, and maybe they are going to creat raid bosses that tailor to this, but holding off on using abilities to wait for things to line up seems very clunky, and based on the last 7 years of boss fights it seems it would be far more luck dependent than skill dependent. In PvP, especially arena, it seems even worse. Attempting to get multiple enemy players in a straight line with you doesn't seem like an enjoyable mechanic and certainly has very little, if any, skill involved. Developers should know by now how much players hate luck-based mechanics (see complaints from spriests about shadow orbs and rets about awful "rotation" for most of cata), we want to feel like we are skilled in the game we have been playing for almost a decade. We do not want to feel like we just got lucky, and even worse, like we just lost because we were unlucky. This new mechanic just seems terrible and I really hope they rethink it. I am glad that they finally gave hunters something new in MoP because before now it was just removing minimum range and basically everything else stayed the same, but they have to be able to come up with something a little better than this mechanic.

    EDIT: We are still one of the few classes without a post-85 ability, hopefully that changes soon. Every other class seems to be getting really cool stuff while we are merely getting a clunky luck-based mechanic.

    EDIT 2: Are developers aware of the existence of BM hunters? Are there any decent pet changes coming? All I've heard is the talent trees are being removed, which is pretty rough, especially for extreme soloers. It sounds like their awful pathing and AI issues will continue making BM not playable in 95% of situations for both PVE and PVP. And looking at the talents and trees, there don't seem to be any new pet related things whatsoever. Why make a class so dependent on pets if they are just going to be ignored in development? I'm really curious where they plan to go with BM and hunters in general because they seem to be pretty lost on what direction they want for the class. IMO they should just steal the companion mechanic from SWTOR because that pet system is leaps and bounds ahead of Blizzard in pathing and AI.

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