February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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Warlock: Rejuvenation

Hmm, what? Why would we want a heal? We are damage dealers!
If you are in the ballpark of utility, give us Cyclone =D

Just what you need, another spammable CC! :3
put this back: http://old.wowhead.com/spell=64205 i say in tier 4 paladin talents instead of "Hand of purity"
Just a few quick questions regarding Balance druids. Mind you, these are "core" questions that will matter if we're to maximize our damage in PvP and PvE.

Here's what I'm seeing:
- Nature's Grace is now baked into Eclipse, triggering when you gain Eclipse.
- Wrath refreshes the duration of Sunfire, while in Eclipse.
- Starfire refreshes the duration of Moonfire, while in Eclipse.
- Moonfire morphs into Sunfire upon entering Solar Eclipse.

Will Moonfire and Sunfire be allowed to exist on the same target?
Will "Insect Swarm" have dispel protection?

Filler question:
What's the reasoning behind Mass Entanglement rooting a limited number of units, yet Ring of Frost having no limit to the number of targets that can be frozen?
Rogues look to be getting way too much healing now. Recup is already a big deal considering a Rogue can hit a 5-point Recup and then run away.

Leeching Poison + Shiv seems like massive overkill unless you intend to make PvP even more Cata-like and make fights last much longer and thus weaken the relative strength of Rogue CC as a defensive mechanic.

I think you may misunderstand the mechanics of it. It only heals 10% of damage dealt after the poison is on your target and it already has a 50% chance of proccing.

I don't even see it as a viable talent to be honest when compared to elusiveness or cheat death. Except in a raid environment perhaps where I'm doing a lot more sustained dps.

I still see Instant Poison on the rogue skill list in addition to being referenced by other skills. I thought you were getting rid if IP and we were going with a damage poison/utility poison model? If this isn't the case, I'm pretty disappointed. I see that all rogues bring a haste buff to the raid now. Are the old raid buffs - increased magic damage for assassination, increased physical damage for combat, and +crit/bleed damage for subtlety - being removed from the game altogether or just from rogues? Besides moving energy regen off of recuperate and onto SnD for subtlety I don't really see much that is changing from our rather old and tired, auto attack dependent, model of dpsing. I'm also pretty blah about Tricks persisting in it's current form. It is nice to have an MD to help tanks but it's just morphed into a raid dps cd that you keep tying to our set bonuses. It isn't an interesting ability to have or use, just one more cd to watch, it even still has an energy cost which just about every rogue spends a glyph to remove. I'd still like to see it taken off the gcd and it's energy cost removed. I'm curious, with the removal of the +hit talents, will we get something passive that gives us a +8% chance to hit for our poisons like what prot paladins currently get for their spells?

Making people choose between Prep and Mobility with the level 60 talents? You need both prep and mobility for PvP, you can't really choose between them. Paralytic poison, I'm skeptical of you. When you stun people in PvP it is for a reason and you do it at a certain time to, say, lock someone up for a shadow dance. Just randomly stunning people is going to mess up DRs on your other, better, stuns while doing arguably little to actually seal a kill. The level 90 talents...a ranged combo point builder? Sounds good on paper except why do I need to build combo points on something at range when I can't put them into a finisher. There is no situation in raiding or PvP where doing something like this would be of more use than either trying to close with/escape from your target/kiter or switching to a closer target. Well, I guess I could have used it on Atramedes for his air phase. Versatility is another talent that probably sounded nice on paper. The only reason redirect would need something like this is because of the absurdly long cd it was created with in the first place rather than the baked in 15-20 sec or so it CD it should have been created with. Half the time I can't even use redirect in a raid because when an add dies it despawns and takes the combo points with it. I still see combat is getting stuck with Bandit's Guile. Rogues are still going to take a large dps hit switching targets. Much like Versatility, Anticipation seems to be an attempt to fix a design flaw with a talent rather than simply going to the source to fix it. I'm also unsure if you realize how bursty this talent might be in PvP. Am I missing something or does this talent basically just increase a rogues combo point pool from 5 to 10? Why not just give rogues 6-7 combo points to deal with the overflow from multiple CP generators like Mutilate or Ambush? Of all the choices, this is the only viable one. Right now you have to make choices as a rogue - Am I going to cap out on energy? Do I dump my CPs into a finisher and clip a buff like envenom if Assassination or SnD if Combat/Sub rather than do that? Or would that be more of a dps loss than waiting and letting Rupture fall off or squeezing in one more Eviscerate in Deep Insight? With this talent you wouldn't have to choose anymore since you wouldn't have to dump those CPs. Clip envenom or cap out energy for a second then refresh rupture 1 second after that? No need to choose, just throw out one more Mutilate and refresh rupture in 2 seconds with 5 of the 7 combo points you now have. Those are the kinds of decisions you have to make to play well and I won't have to make them anymore once I have this talent. :(

It's hard not to be discouraged when other classes are getting revamped and we are getting what appears to be bandaids. All I really see are quality of life changes and little else. I hope there are more substantial changes forthcoming not yet indicated by what you've revealed so far.

I see other people talking about prot warriors and their rotation. I'm not sure if it's already been brought up (it's a big thread), but moving Sword and Board procs off of Devastate and onto Revenge made me scratch my head. A prot warrior's contribution in a raid as it stands right now is, when not actively tanking because of some kind of swap mechanic, essentially spamming Devastate and hoping for a S&B proc. If they aren't blocking they aren't getting revenge procs and they aren't getting enough rage to do much of anything. It's awfully boring to play and on fights where even tank dps matters it makes bringing a warrior a poor choice. Too much of their ouput is tied to blocking incoming attacks as it is and you are taking them further down that road which I believe to be a mistake (among others).

In a pvp setting I think you are forgetting about deadly throw - it could excel vs casters when you are kited/rooted by building with shuriken and releasing with deadly throw now that it's baseline interrupt. You can also redirect into a deadly throw to rupt a heal - if you can do it fast enough.

I agree with everything else.
Why are we given new ways to get rid of chunks of health at a time and no way to regain health?level 60 abilities, all of them sucklevel 90 abilities, all of them suckWhy would you guys even put an ability in the game that got rid of 25% of your health?

Right...why do all the Warlock abilities that would work well in emergencies cost Health ? That's exactly when you Dont' want to use any health is when these spells would be there most usefull duh ..

It's as if all the warlock changes were made soley for PvP by someone who's never PvP'd as a warlock

I am very dissappointed that Demonic Fury is still in the works, really ? Warlocks now have to build up combo points......this is making me want to vomit
I have some quick questions right now regarding the lvl 60 talents for druids, specially Balance.

All these talents regarding balance are just DPS increases, that means that , in order to be good all of them will have the same DPS increase in pve, however I don't see them being very exiting or interesting, just another button to increase damage and some utility in PvP.

Now I would like to know if the "improved forms" I mean chosen of Elune etc. will have a new model? or will they be just the old form "bigger" or the old form "bigger and turned, let's say blue or red (like an enrage) because in that case thay would be really boring.

Then with the Force of nature talent, what can we expect for their special efects?, will Balance's tress hit harder than a resto druid trees?, can I expect the old brambles talent efect, or something actually new that may be useful only in PvP, or both PvP and PvE?

Also I would to like to point out that Chosen of elune form should give some kind of protection efect, given that moonkins are really laking shields that other classes including hybrids have, even in the new build I think Chosen of elune should give some kind of 30% less damage taken or something.

As I said this tier looks a little boring specially for balance sinse the exlipse system isn't exactly the most exactly and everything we get related to that is just faster energy acumulation.
Thank god AD isn't a choice anymore. That was a joke from the previous talent tree. Also, I am welcoming the new number squish since it is all but confirmed if you look at the talents.
Please stop capping fire mage's ability to multidot / aoe.
I have a question:

For Fire Mages, Why do we completely lose Blastwave? That is a great AoE for us, I am just curious about the changes, what is the overall approach with Fire Mages now?

And are we losing our portals?
02/15/2012 06:02 PMPosted by Kaivax
Holy Paladin: Rebirth

Is that really useful for 10 man raiding, given the 1 BRez per attempt restriction?
I want to see the Gylphs damn it!
Where be they?!?!?
Are we losing our Portals?
Moving DK rune talents to 75 makes me really sad. Lowbie DK quality of life is already bad... That said, I still don't see how Blood Tap compares to RE and RC, and RC still strikes me as the obviously best choice. This section for DKs still strikes me as not amazingly diverse and not a fun choice for the user. A lot of the other trees are like "agh I have to pick between two to three awesome things" whereas 75 is just "Which of these is going to get me the most runes?"

Outbreak going back to baseline is a huge relief, though.

Other classes; Warrior and Rogue I am relieved to see their current end-tier talents removed from 90, which really needed to happen. Making Rogues' end tier talents baseline for those specs is a bold move and one I'd like to see stick. Elusiveness is neat--I'm a big fan of how feint works currently.

After reading into the subject, though, I feel like Rogues still aren't getting anything that brings something to the group besides numbers. The new ideas for Rogues' 90 talents are certainly quality-of-life improvements, but they don't seem fun or iconic to the spirit of what Rogue should be. Shuriken Toss is just another strike ability. They're boring. A ranged combo point generator is certainly new and novel to Rogue, but frankly, I am having issues coming up with uses for it outside of PvP. I feel like Rogue is an incredibly boring PvE class to play.

The new party-wide stealth skill is sort of neat, but... just not creative. I feel like Rogue is sorely lacking in creativity. Blizzard isn't trying new concepts for Rogues, while Mages are becoming Chronomancers or something (just as a comparison.)

Warrior: Redesigned vigilance looks good. Current version is pretty useless--felt so before and was made even moreso after the threat buff in 4.3--so changing it to something like its current state is a good call. Mass Spell Reflect also looks really cool. However, when I get down to the nitty gritty of Bloodbath, it looks an awful lot like a watered down version of Assassination's Vendetta on a shorter cooldown. It probably won't be bad, but it doesn't strike me as amazingly interesting. I am halfway on Deadly Calm--Moving it to 90 seems lame, but changing it from its current form seems like the right thing to do since I don't remember it really feeling like it mattered a whole lot as Arms, who had no issues with running out of rage for their basic rotation.

Something I notice about Shaman that really bothers me is that the only baseline heal is Healing Surge. Won't this greatly damage Enhancement's already poor survivability?

And finally: What's happened to Mages' Flame Orb? Why does only Frost have a similar ability?
Did I read this correctly

Cleanse Spirit: Removes all (up from 1) Curse effects from a friendly target. 8 second cooldown (up from none).

Please reconsider the cooldown on this ability.

There are several curses out there that could easily kill a player if we waited 8 seconds to cleanse it. I understand the need to have some type of cooldown but 8 seconds seems a bit excessive.

Thank you for your consideration
Sorry if I'm just asking the same question as someone else here: So for Sword of Light, is it still going to increase spell hit or are you guys making us go for that hit cap as well now? Or maybe Judgement, Exorcism, etc. are going to be based on melee hit rating? Not QQ'ing if we have to aim for 17% hit, I'd just like to know if maybe you guys overlooked that in the tooptip. Also, LOVE THE REVAMP!!! Our new level 90 talents are amazing, Svala's sword ritual, ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!
why did the cooldown for tranquility increase from 3min to 5min? it's perfect as is..:(
I feel like Ret Pallys kinda got the short end of the stick.....
02/15/2012 11:58 PMPosted by Herecius

Ignoring the complete and utter irony of being accused of overpoweredness by a frost mage, your entire assertion is foolishness. Our bubble, in addition to being a five minute cooldown, cuts our damage by 50% and two out of three specs can barely heal themselves in that time, and LoH has such a long CD it's not even usable in arenas. The fact that you consider either of those abilities factors that would justify the hobbling of our only form of reliable CC speaks to me of a complete and utter lack of understanding of the class's actual capabilities.

Mages - Rune of Power

Remove it or nerf it to death. That's way to OP, especially if you can place two down at the same time. Nerf is by reducing its lasting time to 20 seconds and have a 2 minute cool down, can only have one out at a time, manage regeneration increased only by 70% and ~10% damage increase.

Mages - Invocation

Nerf it by having a ~2 -3 minute cool down and make up for it by regenerating 1% base mana every 5 seconds for 30 seconds.

Mages - Incanter's Shield

Nerf it by having a 1 minute cool down and only increase spell power by 10%.

Mages - Frostjaw

Nerf it by having a 2 minute cool down. Way top OP if a frost mage picks it since they already have deep freeze.

Paladin - Fist of Justice

Nerf it to a 1 minute cooldown and make it a magical stun.

Shamans - General question
Wheres their damage increased talents like so far, every single other class gets? I hope their level 90 talents are damage increased ones.

Yup, an overpowered mage who wants his own class to be nerfed.

6 second stun with a 30 second cooldown is simply ridiculous.

first what you dont understand is that how mana works is being changed, so those abilities you are claiming need a nerf for mages, it might nit need a nerf, it might be needing a buff, cause we have yet to see exactly how mana is changing

second. that 30 sec CD 6 second stun, that REPLACES HoJ, and it comes at the opportunity cost of repentance or burden of guilt
Why are we given new ways to get rid of chunks of health at a time and no way to regain health?

level 60 abilities, all of them suck
level 90 abilities, all of them suck

Why would you guys even put an ability in the game that got rid of 25% of your health?

First of all, it has always been in the lore that warlocks make blood sacrifices for their power so I like that Blizz is getting around to making that an in-game feature. Do I agree that 25% is a little steep, yes, but have you seen Harvest Life? Have you seen the other defensive and movement abilities we are finally being given?! And blantentley stating that all of these moves suck is clearly ignorant to the understanding of these mechanics. I would gladly take a 10% hit for instant fear. The only lvl 90 talent that needs work is Mannoroth's Fury and I still don't think they are done playing around with it. Passivley dealing 5% rebound damage and then cursing for 30% rebound damage? Yes please, and Kil'jaeden's Cunning finally gives us more to do during heavy movement instance moments than just recast Dots or maybe get off a shadow bolt if shadow trance procs.

All in all Blizz I'm very happy with the changes, I saw the response that Wild Imps is staying in and I'm happy to hear it as that is a great demo feature. I would also be interested to know what the felguard superform is as well as any actual stats you can give us pertaining to the new demon forms. I'm also still wondering if it is just a bug or does the new metamophosis really have no time limit or CD?

I'm also not quite getting the way destro will work. It seems like the embers now deal damage to you and you have to burn them to regen health just because lol damage/healing cycle to waste time. Like I said I like the way locks are now getting the sacrifice life for power feature (more than just life tap) but I would also like to see more of a point to it for these destro embers.

Just my thoughts on the DK Talents mainly coming from a Frost DPS perspective.

Teir 1: Roiling Blood is definitely not something I would even think of taking since as frost i'm just going to be lol Howling Blast all over the place and it already applies FF, plus Pestilence ase frost spreads diseases at 50% normal damage.

Vile Spew I either have to raise then waste dps just to spread disease and again HB is already spreading FF on it's own, so it's even more of a waste just so I can spread BP.

Unholy Blight seems interesting but again it comes down to HB already spreading FF so i'm using a 1.5 minute cooldown to spread BP to my targets though my guess is this move does do damage, cannot say for sure.

Unholy Blight would currently be my choice but I don't find it an overall interesting choice just to have a BP spreader that's on a 1.5 minute cooldown.

Teir 2: The clear winner for me as PVE is AMZ just to have a raid cooldown and I do like that choice for sure as a frost DK, allows me to have more options. Icy Grip and Lichborne are move PVP oriented to me and seem like decent choices but as far as PVE I guess it'll come down to encounters though I doubt either one of those would be interesting to take.

Teir 3: Death's Advance as far as PVE really isn't a concern, maybe the new raids will change that outlook but it's just meh.

There were times with Chillbains was great to have but again it'll probably be fairly hit or miss and more of a PVP decision.

Asphyxiate I guess would be my current choice but, and I'm not 100% on how it works, if it stops me from being able to attack and i have to wait aka channel it then it's again meh to me but it would be my choice.

Teir 4: I really like how Death Pact gets redone so that PVE wise if i need the health i can use it while not sac'ing my ghoul and losing dps output.

Death Siphon looks kind of cool and I guess is nice from the stand point that I wouldn't have to waste 2 runes for DS to get health back which could be nice.

I wouldn't take Vampiric Blood and I'm honestly confused why this is here, I don't think it's really a good idea to have a must Blood Tank cooldown as a choice for a Talent. Just feels out of place to me.

Teir 5: Runic Corruption and that's enough for me. I wasn't a fan of Runic Empowerment and don't really like Blood Tap. Maybe the Rune system is being changed some but I'll be happy i don't have to us Runic Empowerment anymore but that makes this teir dull.

Teir 6: I actually like all these abilities though Remorseless Winter would be my choice. I guess my issue is I just don't feel their are Teir 6 worthy and would be better moved up with new choices in their place.

The changes to Frost Presence has me somewhat confused and with what looks to be a lot of Runic Power I'm wondering how the heck we are going to spend it all. FP just still feels lackluster to UP. Is Howling Blast going to be changed at all? I know you didn't like cleaves to be part of the standard rotation but Frost DK's lucked out when just about everyone elses was changed. Are diseases going to become a lot stronger cause now they are somewhat lackluster compared to when I was 80. Soul Reaper could be fun but Frost already had Merciless Combat that increased damage below 35%, maybe that isn't getting rolled into the spec but having two executes seems weird to me, like i'll be lackluster for all but the last 35% of the fight where I need to make up ground. Control Undead is just a waste of time I hate to say. Just like Dark Simulacrum was unless you PVP'ed. Army of the Dead needs to be changed for the better. Either make it a tanking cooldown or just a DPS cooldown that isnt' a waste to cast except at the beginning of the fight. Also find some way to balance 2h frost with dw.

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