February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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The changes to bear (guardian) seem to remove the theme of crit->survivability from the tree, as savage defense is now active and pulverize is gone. Continuing to use leather agi DPS gear, this would mean that every secondary stat except mastery contributes very little to survivability. Yes, generating more rage allows the uptime on SD to be higher, but this is very subtle compared to the benefit plate classes get from dodge/parry. Given this, the separation of cat/bear trees, and the fact there are now two leather tanking specs, will we see actual leather tanking gear?
02/16/2012 02:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage.

So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?
Prep/Step still on the same tier, minus alot of internets for you blizz.
i've noticed with a handfull of multi roll classes that some of the tiers are strick dps or strick healing or even strick damage reduc talents maybe you guys could spread those out a bit more an not clump them all together.
yeah in pvp it may seem bad but you guys at blizz have a habit of tuning down alot of stuff for pvp. so it may not be to bad that way
I don't see Teleport and Portal spells anywhere for mages. Should I be concerned or is this an oversight and we actually DO have it but it's not listed?

Fear not! Mages will still have all their Teleports and Portals. At this point, we decided to hide them from the talent calculator to reduce clutter.

What about backdraft? I do not see this anywhere and it would be severely disappointing for all destruction enthusiasts if this were removed
OK, Warrior Tank For Life here, talking about what I see.

1) There has already been some discussion about the rage costs of Prot attacks and their cooldowns. Obviously this is a system undergoing a major change. If you read over the Warrior Feedback thread that you yourselves started, you would have seen that a lot of Fury warriors dislike the RNG nature of their attacks. Many of them posted how poorly they felt about sitting and watching the screen until they had something to do. Well, you're doing it to tanks now, too. The extended cooldown of both Revenge and Devastate, plus the removal of Devastate from the Sword and Board ability, will routinely leave us with nothing to do. We can only Thunderclap so often, we don't need to apply Rend, you took away Concussion Blow, and traditionally defensive abilities (like Shield Block) are off the GCD anyhow. Cleave and Heroic Strike are intentionally made to eat a lot of rage, and they've been off the GCD also. Hamstring is niche. If we're doing our job correct we don't need to Taunt much. Regardless of what you've already said on this topic already, it just feels like you're intentionally making a class/spec where, if played correctly, there are mandatory breaks in which you get to hope your red bar gets larger, but don't get to do anything about it one way or the other.

"We’re okay with melee specs having an occasional free GCD, as long as it doesn’t happen with frustrating regularity."
It's going to. Try it out and you'll see.

2) Warriors, as they stand, have nearly zero combat control abilities. We have either Concussion Blow or Throwdown (unless we're Fury), and Intimidating Shout. You have removed both. Stormbolt is not a suitable replacement, especially for tanks. Tanks are used to using Heroic Throw/Gag Order for spellcaster pulls. Stunning the spellcaster has the opposite effect. Also, Stormbolt is level 90.

3) Almost all of the class/spec combinations have had their end-tree talents moved onto the Trainer List. Death Knights, for example, can train Dancing Rune Weapon at 74, Summon Gargoyle at 74, and Howling Blast at 55. In fact, of the 31 class/specs in the game, 22 of them have had their major talents moved to trainer abilities. Arms and Prot warriors had them moved to talents. At this time, this puts us in a very uncomfortable minority with Fire mages and maybe Ret paladins and Resto druids. To make things feel even more insulting, Fury warriors get both of their end-tree talents at level 38, AND THEN get to pick one of ours! If they don't take Avatar, which of course they all will.

And for tanks, the level 60 talents aren't even that good of a choice. Bladestorm does weapon damage, and tanks all use one-handed weapons. It also prevents you from using such things as Shield Block and Taunt. No tank is going to risk that. 20% bonus damage from Avatar for a tank isn't particularly special, so it comes down to Shockwave, or a movement-reduction-immunity cooldown.

4) Speaking from the other side, DPS at level 75 don't have a lot of good options, either. Mass Spell Reflect requires shields, so that will mandate a clumsy macro, or else being ignored entirely. Both of the remaining choices involve the warrior taking extra damage, something most DPS aren't big fans of. This seems somewhat direct to fix if you read 5) below.

5) And finally (for now), I look over the list of other talents from hybrid classes such as paladin, shaman, priest and druid. They often refer to the role the of the user, having a different effect by spec (druid) or by friendly/enemy target (paladin). For hybrid classes, this seems like a fair idea. But I will remind you that warriors are also hybrid classes, and the same treatment could be applied. Where are the "does X damage, or reduces the target's spell damage by Y%" or "does half damage but lowers the target's chance to hit by Z% in defensive stance" talents?

I appreciate you bringing this information to us, and I speak for most of us when I say we are eager to see more.
Hi , it seems u remove my favorite lazy spell : walking with hellfire in demo spec . will that become a glyph for all spec ?
02/15/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Phir
OMG Ascendance for Shamans!

Yes it looks so sick, I cant wait to be storm striking people from 30yards away! Then again lava burst having no CD will be kinda op, i wonder which spec will be better once that talent system comes out. But for now Enhancement all the way!
Warlocks are very underpowered right now. Thought I'd put that out there.
02/16/2012 04:51 PMPosted by Abraçadaver
Warlocks are very underpowered right now. Thought I'd put that out there.

Divine storm costing 3 hp and doing 50% weapon damage to enemies within 8 yards makes me think that aoe will not be something paladins will be doing much of in MoP. It will be funny to see the pally in the group run up and do one little swerlie then take 6-12 secs to get the hp to do another. By that time the mobs are dead from classes that will actually have viable aoe attacks.

Or you could look and see that Ret can use Hammer of the Righteous to generate Holy Power, then DS to spend the 3 on an AE attack.
Question-that's-actually-an-exclamation: But we loved Corpse Explosion!

Answer: Yes. You do. So do we. Unfortunately, requiring a corpse felt like too steep a requirement for a competitive talent. We would like to still add Corpse Explosion in some form as a glyph. In the meantime, hey presto! - Unholy Blight is back.

Question: Why not just remove the corpse requirement part?

You could change it to be a PBAoE explosion around the DK - isn't he technically a corpse?
Then again, we have Blood Boil already...

But, on an unrelated note: I notice that ALL Rogues will get Fleet-footed passively.
So what about Shaman with the current Ancestral Swiftness? The talent doesn't just make Ghost Wolf instant (which I see will be baseline in MoP), it also gives Shaman 15% run-speed at all times.

Will Shaman get passive 15% run speed as well?

While on the topic of Ghost Wolf, I notice that it no longer has an anti-snare component. Will Enhancement Shaman be getting a new gap closer, or is the anti-snare part being put into a glyph?

I know most of this is still "work in progress" but I think many Shaman would at least like to know what options you are considering and leaning towards.
I don't see Teleport and Portal spells anywhere for mages. Should I be concerned or is this an oversight and we actually DO have it but it's not listed?

I am (very VERY strongly) hoping for the latter.

Don't worry -- mages will still have all their current Teleports and Portals in Mists of Pandaria. I believe we just hid them from the MoP talent calculator to reduce clutter (there's something like 30+ teleport/portal spells at present).

Maybe you should just condense them all into a single Teleport/Portal spell that allows Mages to Teleport/Portal to any Innkeeper they have discovered. Make it like when you open up the flight path - they click on a node, and that's where the Teleport/Portal goes to.

Edit: Well maybe not ANY innkeeper, but any of the innkeepers you want porting to.
02/16/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Troelsen
Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage.

So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?
ugh lets hope they fix that
Just a few quick questions regarding Balance druids. Mind you, these are "core" questions that will matter if we're to maximize our damage in PvP and PvE.

Here's what I'm seeing:
- Nature's Grace is now baked into Eclipse, triggering when you gain Eclipse.
- Wrath refreshes the duration of Sunfire, while in Eclipse.
- Starfire refreshes the duration of Moonfire, while in Eclipse.
- Moonfire morphs into Sunfire upon entering Solar Eclipse.

Will Moonfire and Sunfire be allowed to exist on the same target?
Will "Insect Swarm" have dispel protection?
What's the reasoning behind Mass Entanglement rooting a limited number of units, yet Ring of Frost having no limit to the number of targets that can be frozen?

Feedback regarding Balance AoE (Astral Storm and Wild Mushrooms).
- Wild Mushrooms need to detonate for Spellstorm damage, not just Nature. You'll still have Druids camping Solar Eclipse for upward of 20sec simply because an AoE phase is coming up. While under hte effects of Clearcasting (OoC), Mushrooms cost 0 mana.
- Astral Storm/Hurricane does not compete with Mushrooms. Mushrooms are simply too powerful. 3 Mushrooms do as much damage to ONE mob as a tick on TEN mobs.

Suggestion to help Lunar AoE:
- Starfall increases damage done by Astral Storm by 50%
- Wild Mushrooms deal Spellstorm damage, allowing them to benefit from Lunar Eclipse.

Feedback regarding Typhoon:

Why is Typhoon a talent for the Druid class, rather than a core spell for Balance? Talents were meant to be reasonable for all speccs, correct? Why would a Feral or Guardian want to take Typhoon? As a melee speccs, you want to keep within melee range, not push them away.

I am overall pretty satisfied with the listed changes for the balance spec, but I have to agree with the points brought up about balance AoE in this post. As it currently stands doing aoe in solar eclipse compared to being out of solar eclipse is a night and day difference (no pun intended). You are heavily punished for not being in solar eclipse when you need to aoe, almost like being in solar eclipse might as well be a requirement to aoe.

No good balance druid as of right now gets caught in a position where they don't have solar eclipse for aoe because we all know how much better it makes our aoe, its a no-brainer. This does cost us some single target dps, a category we are already lacking in, but we do it anyway because its that much better for aoe. If this is intended design then thats great, I don't really have any problems with sticking with it but it should be made known that solar eclipse is essentially a requirement for competitive aoe dps unless hurricane is vastly buffed in Mists of Pandaria. The sole reason for solar being supreme hands down(as noted by the poster I am quoting) is because of Wild Mushrooms.
Posted by Kaivax
Holy Paladin: Rebirth

Is that really useful for 10 man raiding, given the 1 BRez per attempt restriction?

It's very useful. Perhaps your only BR elsewise is the druid's, but the druid is your tank and doesn't have time to shift out and use it because of the nature of the fight. Or the druid is dead--this obviously depends on if Symbiosis persists through death or not (which, since it can't be cast in combat as of now, seems more than likely).

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