February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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Xelnath's been right about a few things (I'm sure the blues have their eye on you now D=), so I trust that the pre-execution phase penalty is Demo only.
I wonder about Decimation, though. How will haste interact with it? Does it reduce the base cast time or the cast time after Decimation? If it does the former, then at 100% haste Soul Fire would be instant cast (100% haste means half cast time, so Soul Fire would be at 2 sec cast time before Decimation and 0 sec after it) and the penalty would do nothing (0 sec cast time x 2 is still 0). Now, if it works after Decimation, then it would be like Decimation halves Soul Fire's cast time and is cancelled when Soul Fire hits a target with too much health (100% haste for a 2 sec cast time means 1 sec cast time, if it's doubled then it would be a 2 sec cast time just like a Soul Fire that is not modified by Decimation at 100% haste).
Btw, used 100% haste to simplify the maths, but it should work like this: if haste reduces the base cast time, then it's twice as effective for Soul Fire; if not, then there's no change.
If it works on base cast time, then Soul Fire doesn't only benifit greatly from crit but also from haste (up to 100% haste) for Demo, at least, it the class Soul Fire is indeed wrong.
02/22/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Xelnath
Soul Fire doesn't have its cast time increased as destro - that's a demonology-only specific passive.


Hopefully this is true.
Even with the clarifications, I still don't understand the new Destruction model...
Why are we not GCD locked in the first place? When would stop casting be beneficial in this new model?
For instance, Arcane mages are supposed to spend or conserve their mana at the right times, but that doesn't mean they are not GCD locked or that they shouldn't be casting at all times...

And what's that about mana management? The way you described it, it seems like we are able to fill a whole mana bar through Chaotic Energy just by casting two mana-free Soul Fires in a row. Well, if Chaotic Energy replenishes that much mana, we wouldn't be out of mana in the first place... Even if Incinerate, Immolate and Conflagrate cost an absurd amount of mana, in fights where there is constant downtime or movement, you probably wouldn't run out of mana at all. And where does Life Tap come in all of this??

How is the example rotation you described different from just casting Incinerate until you have 1 Ember (instead of an empty mana bar) and then Soul Fire? I really don't get how my mana plays a part in all of this...

What about Soul Fire doubling its cast time when it hits targets above 25%? Are we really supposed to cast two of them in a row? Even if we consider Destructive Influence, I assume it only affects the next Soul Fire you cast by dumping the stacks when you do.
One of the complaints about Improved Soul Fire was casting a long cast time spell. Will we be supposed to keep doing that?

And, by the way, when you said this:
2. Conflagrate to trigger emberstorm


, did you mean Backdraft instead of Emberstorm?
Need information on what 'Lava Beam' is from the Elemental Ascendance!!!

/target Kaivax
/cast Banana


/merge Banana;Icecream=Smoothie


I drank the smoothie, would have gone bad otherwise!! Thus I now offer flea remover.
I don't know if this tread is still being watched but I'll chime in here.

I know that the priests class is being heavily revamp and I wanted to wait on a revision of the priest MoP changes before over analyzing. With that said there was a couple things I saw wrong that I wanted to point out just in case.

1) Angelic Bulwark is superior to Disc Priests because it not only Buffs PW:S, but also Aegis and Spiritshell. Wondering if this was suppose to be a Disc only talent doesn't seem to conform to the rest of the style of the new talent tree (Which I assume was all talent(s) having some benefit to each spec).

2) Surge of Light is weaker for Disc Priests because they neither have Heal nor Binding Heal. Maybe adding S.Shell or Greater heal would help make this more useful.

3) Serendipity is weaker for Disc Priests because they don't have PoH. Again seem as a holy only talent maybe add the next holy nova(which might need a name change as its not holy anymore) crits and or adds a stronger shield????

4) Vow of Unity's Healing Transfer is a lot less powerful for Discs, since Absorbs don't get transfered. Also this is pretty useless for Shadow. I don't really know how to fix this one but I leave it open for suggestions.

5) From darkness comes light and Divine insight seems kind of redundant

Again I know the class is in limbo but I'm hoping to see some very creative fixes here in the next couple weeks on some of the glaring problems I have pointed out. All of this MOP expac talk makes me wish I could travel in time about 3-6 months and get it started already. :)
Few Questions about the new mage designs.
I noticed in the spell list it doesn't say Fireball or Pyroblast needs to crit to apply ignite.
So if i were to cast 4-5 fireballs would there ignite damage stack?

"Alter time" says it returns casters to there original conditions, Will it work similar to the Murozond encounter in End Time when a player presses the hourglass?
Will it take abilities, trinkets and talents proc's off cooldown?
anyone else excited about shamans? resto already looks like its going to be crazy... and we still haven't seen the last 3 talent tree abilities.
ETA on Hunter and Shaman revamp update?
02/23/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Theocles
ETA on Hunter and Shaman revamp update?


Are Hunters being revamped?

I personally think their specs (especially Survival) could use a lot more personality and that their mechanics need serious streamlining, but I don't remember seeing any indication from the devs that they intended to revamp Hunters. They're getting changes, sure, but I haven't seen anything that really looks like a complete overhaul, like what's happening to Demonology and Destruction.
Please For the love of god please give Priest a battle rez it is so unfair and no realistic to have Death knight and druids who are mostly dps a battle rez but you dont give Priests ons it kinda ridiculous that this hasnt been fixed b4
Why ignore priests?

Shadow priests, out of the 30+ existing specs in the game, are going to suffer the most from this new change to the talent tree.

Other DPS specs get to choose from dps/dps/dps, dps/dps/tank, or dps/tank/heal, allowing them to take utility from each. Shadow is part of a class which is the ONLY one in the game with 2 heal specs.

•We cannot get a new ability in our talent tree because it would be overpowered if disc/holy could use a strong attack
•The majority of talents are heals that are IMPOSSIBLE to use as shadow. The only BRAND NEW SPELL is a damage redirect.
•Classes like mages, rogues, hunters, locks, and dk's will be able to have super strong specs, taking the best of what they need from each of the dps trees. Shadow has only one linear option for DPS.

Makes me sad.. and to top it all off, on feb 15 all we got was an icon change for desperate prayer

a holy spell

that we can't use in shadowform

edit: our 87 ability was removed that allowed us to go invisible. overall priest just looks boring and extremely lacking compared to other classes, SPECIFICALLY for shadow
Why is Kill Command in the Beast Mastery abilities learned twice?

There is no tooltip difference between the two.

Great job on the talents, btw!
Even with the clarifications, I still don't understand the new Destruction model...
Why are we not GCD locked in the first place? When would stop casting be beneficial in this new model?
For instance, Arcane mages are supposed to spend or conserve their mana at the right times, but that doesn't mean they are not GCD locked or that they shouldn't be casting at all times...

And what's that about mana management? The way you described it, it seems like we are able to fill a whole mana bar through Chaotic Energy just by casting two mana-free Soul Fires in a row. Well, if Chaotic Energy replenishes that much mana, we wouldn't be out of mana in the first place... Even if Incinerate, Immolate and Conflagrate cost an absurd amount of mana, in fights where there is constant downtime or movement, you probably wouldn't run out of mana at all. And where does Life Tap come in all of this??

How is the example rotation you described different from just casting Incinerate until you have 1 Ember (instead of an empty mana bar) and then Soul Fire? I really don't get how my mana plays a part in all of this...

What about Soul Fire doubling its cast time when it hits targets above 25%? Are we really supposed to cast two of them in a row? Even if we consider Destructive Influence, I assume it only affects the next Soul Fire you cast by dumping the stacks when you do.
One of the complaints about Improved Soul Fire was casting a long cast time spell. Will we be supposed to keep doing that?


^ All of those.

The model sounds interesting and certainly a far departure from what we're used to, but from the info we've been given, I don't see a reason to stack embers beyond what we need for the next ability. Are we going to see something like the Arcane Mastery that boosts damage based on how many embers we have?

Regarding Auto-Wand, "Automatically attack the target with an equipped wand until cancelled". Will I have to reactivate this every time I stop casting (since we're not GCD locked)? Will I still wand mid-cast? Most importantly, if this ability is intended to be a constant portion of our damage and something we're using on a regular basis, doesn't it force all Destruction warlocks to use a wand, even if a staff or Dagger/Sword-OH combo is better? I like Destruction, I don't like wands.
The idea for the talents is “decent” but they could be a lot better taking away a lot of talents is what many of us don’t want the talents are NOT specialized for each class spec I mean 3 priest could have the exact same spell regardless if they are holy, disc or shadow but if we use my following idea ANY spec will have 3 new talents that if you are a shadow priest(as a example) No other disc or holy priest will be able to get and vice versa a Holy priest might get new talent that only a Holy priest will get.

all classes depending of the role they chose should choose from 3 awesome talents based on the spec they chose,(dps,tank,healer if they are a hybrid, or spec specific if they are a pure dps class like a fire mage mainly get NEW fire spells) will use a Holy Paladin for a example let’s say that for lv 15 they get NEW spells or passive skill, this skill can be one of these 3 ideas and once you pick one you can’t have another from the same lv 15 tier(remember these are just ideas).

*(New) Holy Bolt: send a Bolt of Holy Magic against a Enemy target causing a splash damage to all targets 10 yards from the target and healing all friendly targets in the area of the splash damage(or just direct hit with no splash damage BUT with splash healing),1.5-2.5 cast time x% base mana.

*(New)Holy Weapon: Imbues the Paladin weapon causing a each Hit to do Extra Holy damage and placing a debuff on target(x debuff) each time the paladin strikes his/her foe it will heal up to 3 friendly targets for a 2-5% max health(you chose the % it can be base max etc) x% base mana 20min duration.

*(New)Lightning Spear: Throw a Holy Lightning Spear at the Target inflicting Holy Damage and Returning Mana equal to the damage done. Instant cast x% base mana(or none) 10-15 seconds coldown.

All of these talents have something to do with a healer, you can heal as you damage with bolts, and you can heal as you fight in melee, or you can recover mana every 15 seconds etc, and all these abilities are at lv 15 so the Paladin from low lvs can have fun during the combat! and then you get NEW talents if you chose to be ret you don't get any of these but a whole new set of talents to chose from.
With this Idea every Class spec will get whole new talents and they won’t have the same new talents a different spec has ill make another random example let’s say lv15 Fire Mage
*(New)Fire trail: when active you will leave a trail of Blazing fire burning your targets as they walk/stand by the fire increasing the damage done if the targets stays in place. Instant cast x% base mana. 10second duration, 30 second coldown.
*(New) Cone of Flames: Similar to “Cone of cold” dealing fire damage and placing a damage over time effect to all targets in the cone and slowing them down to 50%(not 60%). Instant cast x% base mana. 10 second coldown,it could Replace or share a coldown with “cone of cold”.
*(New) Sulfur blast: Blast your enemy with Sulfur dealing low damage to your target leaving a debuff on the target for x seconds, after casting any fire damage spell the Next Fire damage spell will deal a Increased x% more damage and Lit your Target in a Blue Blaze(maybe do damage over time when Lit on the blue fire, blizzards call),1.5 second cast(or instant), x% base mana cost,20 seconds coldown maybe less depending on how powerful it becomes.
And I have several other ideas for all Classes and specs! All you need to do is Contact me.
I really Hope that any of Blizzard Employees takes a Minute of their time to read this any Positive Feedback is very much Welcome.
Not a fan of the Destro Lock changes.

I like DoT management and 'always casting'

I like 9 spell rotations

I don't like combos or resource management.

If I did, I'd play my other toons. Seriously, stop fiddling with the play styles!
Are you sure about the Ascendance spell for elemental shaman? It's damn too good but imagine fire shock, ascendance and spam lava burst with overload and echo of the elements..really OP from my point of view. All crits with subsequent crits from mastery and talents...i really don't like to see this new spell banned from the arenas like the fire elemental totem is now.

One thing i'll really like to see is a revamp to the elemental rotation. Add some kind of stance situacion where we have to change the rotation for a period of time (something like Balance but with Air and Fire power)
Another thing, are you considering the idea of removing or shorten the CD of the shock and/or even removing the shared CD? specially for the Fulmination mechanic..it's really annoying the moment when you have 7 to 9 charges of lightning shield to cast earth shock but the flame shock dot is about to expire in 4 seconds..I know it's all about coordination but also the lightning shields charges from Rollin' Thunder are very unpredictable.
*Unleash Fire must reset the Flame Shock dot timer so we can add it to the rotation, maybe a glyph?

In general: I would love the idea of making the glyphs in a way that change the style of the class, just to add more customization like the MoP talents system let us do.

P.D: Please, if you remove us Water Breathing, give us Bubble of Air! (breaks when struck in combat)

I think that the Dk talent tree is pretty balanced but:

The biggest problems I have, are the level 60 talents. The first time around I didn't worry too much about any weird pieces reguarding specs and talents, assuming that most of it wasn't finished anyway. However seeing vampiric blood still be a talent seriously worries me. In every situation I can think of, it's better to have your 1 min cd vampiric blood to stay alive.

For survival:

•One of the key points of blood dk tanking is cooldown management. We don't use cooldowns because we have them, we use them because we need them. Ensuring we have the highest amount of cd uptime possible is how we stay alive in the current state of the game.

•Vampiric blood (obviously) synergizes well with dk's existing mechanics. When you can pair your vampiric blood up with a rune tap, death strike, death coil heal, gift of the narru, ect. they are very powerfull.

•Any good blood dk knows, the moument when vampiric blood falls off, and bone shield is still on cd, you're in for a world of pain. Looking at heroic morchock and zon'ozz for instance, the moument I run out of cds, I'm ready to call for a hand of sac or a pain suppression. This is because I know if I don't get a cd to tide me over to the next bone shield (or manage to force will of the necropolis to proc), I'll be dead.

•Compared to maximizing cooldown up time, death pact and siphon don't even come close. For one you actually need something to pact with, in bloods case this is only risen ghoul or army ghoul. Neither are reliable since they have cooldowns longer than death pacts cooldown.

•In the case of death siphon, you're giving up a death rune to use it. Which means you're giving up 1 death strike to use potentialy 2 death siphons. Even if we imagine they scale the healing up some more, I dobut it can come close to death strike + blood shields potential, after all death strike scales with the damage you take. For death siphon to be comparable to a death strike would create a balance problem of its own. Also theres the fact that blood already has a single rune instant heal, that doesn't interfere with death strike. Rune Tap already does the job that death siphon could.

For damage:

•Someone who is looking to maximize damage, is concerned with the gcds and rescources they use. Both death pact and death siphon cost an important resource and a gcd. Vampiric blood costs neither and actually functions as a cooldown rather than a clutch heal (which has to be made use of after damage is taken).

•In the case of death pact, a frost dk runs into the same problem as blood. "What am I going to pact with?" There is no dobut that that a frost dks ghoul is going to be used on cooldown, and army before the pull. They'll only have a ghoul to possibly sac for 30%~ of a given encounter. Even with this, they have to burn up 40 runic power and a global on a heal. A heal that has to be used after the dangerous damage is dealt. An unholy dk has a bit of a better case here, in that his ghoul will always be active, but he still has to give up 40 runic and a global on a clutch heal.

•For death siphon, it intially seems a bit stronger since it actually deals damage. That fact is pretty much erased once you remember that death siphon costs a death rune. Theres no way a frost dk is going to want to give up his death rune for a shadow damage hit and heal. Even from the ranged perspective they've got howling blast spam. Death siphon isn't even on frost's radar. The unholy dk again has it slightly better here, since the damage done is shadow and should potentially do more than an icy touch (icy touch would also throw frost fever up for disease damage however). Even then, unholy has runic power banking and death coil spam to use for ranged damage. Also the damage bonus this talent could have occurs when the enemy "isn't" in melee range. Hopefully more flying bosses that only the ranged dps can attack aren't designed.

•Compared to the ability to instant cast a vampiric blood off the gcd with no cost, death pact and siphon are pretty weak. Also since vb has a 15% health increase, you can actually use it to live through damage bursts, and you get a bonus to healing to aid in topping yourself off afterwards. (With the glyph it is 40% healing, making it of greater value on majority of fights.)


Basicly vampiric blood is too strong to be a mop talent. It'll be mandatory for tanking (no tank is giving up their active cd), and the most effective to use while damage dealing. It needs to be a blood spec ability just like bone shield.

What really needs to be in that talent slot, is some kind of heal over time effect and vampiric blood placed back as a blood specific ability. That way it'd actually be balanced compared to the other abilties in its tier and we would keep our current survivability the way it is. This would also balance out the loss of one DS per min, due to the loss of blood tap.

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