February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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ETA on Hunter and Shaman revamp update?

Are Hunters being revamped?

I personally think their specs (especially Survival) could use a lot more personality and that their mechanics need serious streamlining, but I don't remember seeing any indication from the devs that they intended to revamp Hunters. They're getting changes, sure, but I haven't seen anything that really looks like a complete overhaul, like what's happening to Demonology and Destruction.

• For shaman and hunters, we still have a ways to go with the revamp of talents, and this latest calculator doesn’t have some of the changes that we’re currently working on.
02/17/2012 02:37 AMPosted by Rein
Can you go back and make Spirit Walker's Grace into something cool like Camouflage instead of something totally useless?

For pvp Spirit Walker's is amazing, don't get it nerfed for pve boredom reasons please.
I don't know if this tread is still being watched but I'll chime in here.

I know that the priests class is being heavily revamp and I wanted to wait on a revision of the priest MoP changes before over analyzing. With that said there was a couple things I saw wrong that I wanted to point out just in case.

1) Angelic Bulwark is superior to Disc Priests because it not only Buffs PW:S, but also Aegis and Spiritshell. Wondering if this was suppose to be a Disc only talent doesn't seem to conform to the rest of the style of the new talent tree (Which I assume was all talent(s) having some benefit to each spec).

2) Surge of Light is weaker for Disc Priests because they neither have Heal nor Binding Heal. Maybe adding S.Shell or Greater heal would help make this more useful.

3) Serendipity is weaker for Disc Priests because they don't have PoH. Again seem as a holy only talent maybe add the next holy nova(which might need a name change as its not holy anymore) crits and or adds a stronger shield????

4) Vow of Unity's Healing Transfer is a lot less powerful for Discs, since Absorbs don't get transfered. Also this is pretty useless for Shadow. I don't really know how to fix this one but I leave it open for suggestions.

5) From darkness comes light and Divine insight seems kind of redundant

Again I know the class is in limbo but I'm hoping to see some very creative fixes here in the next couple weeks on some of the glaring problems I have pointed out. All of this MOP expac talk makes me wish I could travel in time about 3-6 months and get it started already. :)

Have to agree here. I think the talents for priests healers are going to be nigh impossible to balance without adding more options into the text for usability.

Great point btw about From the Darkness and Divine Insight being almost redundant.
How do you use the tale,t calculator? I cant find it.
02/24/2012 07:00 AMPosted by Louke
How do you use the tale,t calculator? I cant find it.

Google MoP Talent Calculator.

Or click this link:
Hey, i just want to say tht i LOVE what you did with the new spec system and talent calculator... But, I dont particularily like the druids set of talents because they obligate actions that are not desired for their chosen spec. For example, the level 90 talent options all involve things that deal damage, or at least two of the three do. Healers dont deal damage, and if they change form to heal themself for 20% then they are not healing others, even for a split second which in some raids and dungeons can determine the outcome. Please consider this. Otherwise, keep up the Great work, i love you all. :)
I have several comments, questions, and ideas in trying to figure out the overarching question: Where are developers heading with hunters and PvE?

I’ll start by breaking down the talent tree as a PvE player (as most hunters are PvE focused). I’m doing this by looking at DS 10m normal mode bosses because that is the current tier and is where the largest group of players spend their time, regardless of your opinions on raid size, that is the reality. That is what the largest chunk of players care about when looking at their class and its abilities.

Tier 1:
Evasiveness – This one is obviously useless no a raid boss.
Exhilaration – This looked good at first then I started thinking about it and realized you would lose out on more aoe healing by launching 20 yds away from the group than the small heal you gain from doing it. The may be a rare situation on a raid boss that you would use this, but it’s hard to imagine. Any time there is an intensive healing requirement in which the healers would benefit from your using this, everyone is generally stacking for massive aoe heals.
Posthaste – The clear choice from this tier as the extra mobility will occasionally help.

Tier 2:
This is an easy tier, none of them are useful on a boss fight. Take whatever you want, you won’t be using it.

Tier 3:
Spirit Bond is the only one that has any effect on a raid boss as Iron Hawk is only for direct damage.

Tier 4:
The only tier that you will ever switch depending on the fight but it is very simple. If there is a burn phase: Readiness. If not: Thrill of the Hunt. Never ever use Fervor.

Tier 5:
In past tiers there has occasionally been a fight that Black Ice would have helped a bit but nothing in DS and the other two talents obviously have no use in boss fights.

Tier 6:
Binding Shot - like Black Ice there has in the past been a fight here and there that could use it but nothing in DS.
Glaive Toss - Obviously isn’t useful on a boss fight. I would like to take this time to discuss this new mechanic though. It seems very clunky and buggy to try to line up enemies somehow to get the benefit of this and the new black arrow. On a boss fight I’m not sure when it would ever happen and in PvP any opponent with half a brain will avoid lining up as soon as they see a hunter. I’m sure it sounded like a cool concept originally but I just don’t see it working, and it is not fun from a gameplay perspective to try to find a straight line of enemies.
Powershot – This is the clear choice for raiding. My main problem with this talent is that after Blizzcon 2011, hunters were incredibly excited to finally be relieved of the tyranny that is minimum range. This shot just basically reapplies it in lesser version. We can still do damage within melee range but our big level 90 shot only does a third of its normal damage when we do. I’m sure developers were only really looking at PvP but they need to understand the effect it has on PvE too. It is really frustrating when every other fight the group has to stack on the boss for a big aoe healing phase and I have to beg them to be really careful where exactly they stack so I can stay out of min range and still receive the heals. It just isn’t fun to ask 9/24 other people to make special accommodations for your one uniquely frustrating class trait.

So to wrap that up, the talent build is going to be: Posthaste, Whatever tier 2, Sprit Bond, Thrill of the Hunt (unless there is a burn/weakened phase), Black Ice, Powershot. Powershot is the only one that isn’t simply a passive buff to the hunter or buff to an ability. Furthermore, Black Ice and Powershot are the only ones that hunters don’t already have right now, and Black Ice is pretty similar to a few other trap buffing talents/glyphs we already have. That just seems so boring compared to other classes. I look at other trees and they have tons of cool new abilities, not just passive talents. I may be wrong but didn’t they say one of the main goals of the new tress was to avoid passive, percentage talents like making ice trap 10% more effective?

This is why I just can’t figure out where the developers are heading with hunters. I realize it is still a work in progress, they specifically said they have a lot of work to do with hunters and shamans, but what worries me is they actually made a lot of changes from the original tree a few months ago. That means they are working on it, and still unable to come up with good ideas and new concepts. The only new mechanic is this lining up enemies thing that is far from compelling gameplay. Additionally, aren’t we the pet class? So why aren’t there any talents really relating to pets?

Maybe the developers have legitimately just run out of ideas with the class and can’t think of anything else to do in PvE. That is understandable, but why not look at some of the great ideas the hunter community has been presenting for years? The stampede concept has obviously been around for a while and even acknowledged by the blues at one point. Dual wielding is another simple idea to implement. Something else I personally think would be an easy new direction would be to go the explosives expert route that many other mmos have for their hunter-type classes. Just a few abilities fitting that mold seem appropriate for the class. Here is a possible new mechanic from that idea:

Plant Explosives: This ability sets 20 explosives on the target. It is on a 10 min CD so you can only use it once on most fights. If it is reset by readiness, you may have to adjust that. The 20 explosive are actually 10 that do pure damage when triggered, 5 that cause a 4% physical vulnerability debuff on the target for 8 seconds when triggered (stacking on top of other debuffs), and 5 that reduce the targets damage output by 4% for 8 seconds (again, stacking). They just look like 3 different debuffs with a stack counter on the target that is reduced each time you trigger them. You then have 3 separate abilities called trigger explosive (each type having a different name before explosive) that share an 8 sec CD so you can’t stack those debuffs or spam the damaging explosives or anything like that. It costs no focus and is not on the global cooldown. You can trigger the explosives at any time subject to the CD.

Applicability of this would be very fun and gratifying as it would require strategy. When the target is weakened for extended periods like Hagara you could hit your damaging explosives. You can plan with your physical damage teammates to time their CDs with your triggering the physical vulnerability debuffs, e.g. your rogue and warrior hit their CDs at the same time and you chain 2-3 of the physical vulnerabilities at the same time to multiply the damage. Then you coordinate with the healers and tanks for the best time to trigger the damage output debuffs.

This type of thing is not overly complicated to design and would be extremely gratifying for a player. Anyone that has been raiding for years in this game, like I have, knows by now that the most gratifying abilities are those that require strategic planning and those that help the entire team, not just one player’s stats. This would hit those concepts. It would require more tinkering for balance and to make it relevant in PvP but something similar would work.

That is just an idea that took about 10 minutes to come up with and plenty of other hunters in the community have other great ideas. Hopefully looking to some of those ideas will help the developers get over a possible “writer’s block” when it comes to hunter design.

I want to add that I love the concept for the new talent trees when I look at other classes. Having tons of really cool abilities to choose from instead of just passive stat boosts or ability boosts is definitely going in a more interesting direction from the current trees. My problem is just that I don't think they implemented that concept with hunters. Over half of our talents are things we already have. Most of them are passive abilities or buffs. None of the tiers really have a leitimate choice in a raid setting. None of our new abilities offer interesting mechanics like the new mage mana regen options for example. I'm just disappointed that the only class I really love playing, seems to have been really neglected and somehow the intentions behind the new talent tree designs that the developer talked about when first releasing the new system (ie. compelling choices and less passive stat buffs) didn't make it to our tree.

As long as the warlock never lets her mana bar fill up and burn her embers, she's maximizing damage. This is very different from the standard caster model where priority is placed on casting at all times and ordering spells based on cooldown.

Our hope is that the Destruction Warlock will attract players who are interested in a playstyle that rewards spending resources at the right time, rather than constantly casting.

I'm not sure if I like this, I've been playing destro lock as my main for almost 3 years (except for Firelands when I went demo) and I'm used to casting all the time. I guess it remains to be seen if destro will still be a viable spec dps-wise in MoP so I am keeping an open mind for now, then again I have yet to see what changes are in store for demo. From what I've read so far in earlier explanations, isn't demo also supposed to be resource-driven? With casting spells generating Demonic Fury, and more DF means more meta, or something like that? I've never cared for affliction in pve so I don't care how you change that spec, but from what I'm reading, these changes to destro seem quite drastic and will most certainly change the playstyle of those who have played it for so long. Mind you, the only reason I'm going to keep playing into MoP is to see what the raids are like; if they're as crappy as t12 and t13 I may just quit altogether. I sure as hell am not looking forward to seeing a bunch of pandas running around Org.
02/24/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Skruff
Well, if we assume (yes, assume) that Hit will now have value to Bears in the new tanking paradigm, then we would likely be acquiring hit to achieve some cap, be it 6%, 8%, whatever. With the "increase hit rating by 100%" portion of the talent, we'd be at around 12%-16%. While this still falls short of the 17% cap, at least we're closer and could be somewhat effective. I agree that IS should probably be a class ability, not Balance spec only.

Hit is always going to be less valuable than Dodge, Expertise, and Mastery. Crit as well as long as the Rage generated from a Mangle hit is significantly less than an autoattack hit (which has to be that way unless you're going to make rage gains differ by Druid spec).

Ergo, nobody will hitcap unless something drastically changes.

02/24/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Skruff
But our Innervate and Tranqulity will be significantly stronger. And if there's time, you can throw a couple of Healing Touches or Rejuvs on your co-tank before you need to taunt back. Btw, Growl automatically activating Bear form is very nice!

Not sure what that has to do with only regenerating a maximum of 38% base mana (including Innervate) over that 45 second duration, where you would actually consume a max of 504% of base mana (spamming HT). Why would you ever take HotW to only use Tranq?

02/24/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Skruff
One thought I had was that perhaps it'd be more valuable with a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown. What if it were, say, 15 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown?

Would still need to massively increase the passive mana regen, do something about the spell hit cap, and make it so that going Bear isn't a complete waste of time. But it would help.
I do hope this is a joke. After two years of not playing WoW I come back to a restricting talent system and now it appears to be not talent at all.

So let me get this straight, we're throwing out buff totems for static buffs which include 10% spell haste and 5 mastery. I'm sorry I like buffs and I like providing my allies with buffs but no one is looking around for Shamans for their buffs; I wish they would but they're not.

If anyone wants a Shaman they want an elemental shaman, forget enhancement. Alas, I play enhancement and how I play I get no satisfaction out of any of these "talents". If you want to improve the Shaman class make the enhancement line as desirable as non-hybrid melee classes are. Secondly, if you want to improve the Shaman class I suggest you finish it.

Why in the World!...of warcraft are there fire, earth, water, and air elementals but Shamans only have two? Why can Paladins be healers, tanks, and dps while Shamans can be healers, dps, and dps. Were not the two classes intended to reflect one another when WoW first began as a unique and equal class, one for the Horde and one for the Alliance? Druids can perform all three roles, this means that when these classes were unique the Alliance had the advantage. Well you can fix it now. Druids can shape-shift what's wrong with a bit of merging with an elemental?

This class has so much possibility but instead of exploring it you're just trampling it to a pulp.
02/22/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Xelnath
Soul Fire doesn't have its cast time increased as destro - that's a demonology-only specific passive.

Then why does SF's tool tip read 'Burn the enemy's soul, causing 2,342 Fire damage. If used on a target above 25% health, the cast time doubles for 30 seconds.

Soul Fire always Critically strikes. In addition, the damage is increased by your critical strike chance."
would blizzard be up for a third profession for thier toons since we have 4 non professions
I had a friend show me these posts hoping to get me to come back to playing the game, and I told him it gives me even more reason to stay away. It feels like the warlock class is changing so dramatically that it is nothing like what I played when I first fell in love with the class. Yes you can make big changes for expansions, but this one is almost feeling like a complete rewrite of the class. I just don't agree with the direction you're taking us warlocks, but I hope you guys who do stick around for the game enjoy it.
Start of Fight: Full mana bar, Empty Ember bar

1. Immolate the target
2. Conflagrate to trigger emberstorm
3. Incinerate to generate embers
4. Continue until you are low on mana

• Middle of Fight: Empty mana bar, ~2 Embers

1. Soul Fire
2. Soul Fire
3. Mana bar is mostly full (Soul Fire costs embers, so your mana refills during the Soul Fires)

I know that nothing is final yet and we wont know much until we can try this out for ourselves but it seems like the building of embers and using soulfires will play out rather slowly in the rotation. Depending on crit chance it looks like it will take about 7 or 8 incinerates to get to a full ember and that a lot of the rotation will just be incinerate spam. I think that at maybe 5 or 6 incinerates per ember would allow the rotation to maybe flow better and have soulfire slot in where chaosbolt left.

I was also wondering about chaosbolt itself and if it was being redesigned to work with he new system somehow. If not i think just having destructions soulfire change into chaosbolt and just having it do what soulfire does works better because its graphic is a lot nicer then soulfires. The chaotic energy mechanic does give me some hope that you are reworking it though.
The druid talents are improved, but they still need at least some better placement. I liked the first 3 tiers but then...the 4th seemed mainly balance, the 5th mainly feral and the 6th mainly resto.

While they are not a primary pursuit, having a talent to look forward to rather than to feel meh about works well as an additional motivator.

I think you guys are improving over the originally wretched choices.
This old school DK approves the new talents! Good to go.
The Priest talents have some interesting decision points. I think this is the way they should all be, optimally - a sense of giving up one cherished thing for another. Perhaps for some classes it just can't be that way though.
The pally talents seem like the druid ones in that some tiers seem to favor one spec over the others. In fact, the talents seem heavily resto in design.

Given how kludgy and awkward ret is, I would like to see more talents that free up the spec.
This might be on par with the DK talents - ready to go. I really love the 75 tier! What a great selection and what a tricky choice.

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