February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator

General Discussion
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Kaivax: Can you clarify the "Dark Siphon" spell in the DK talent tree? It's currently listed as a 40 yard range, instant cast spell with no cooldown and no rune cost. I'm going to assume some part of that is a typo, but which part?
Hello! Firstly let me thank you for reading my post. This is a constructive criticism of the new talents for Restoration Druids from a player who has played the spec since day one. It is important to also note that I exclusively PVP and this is only from a PVP perspective. However I will try to make my suggestions as mildly intrusive to PVE as possible.

Here is a link to the druid talent tree so you can follow along with me.


After reviewing the new talents that were just updated, I have a few concerns i'd like to address with you. *note* Yes I know they are NOT final and that is exactly why i'm posting this. To hopefully trigger change.

First Concern: The Level 30 Tier

Looking at this from a PVP standpoint, Cenarion Ward would be out of the question as it is essentially a HoT healing around 12k over 6 seconds on a 30 second CD according to the tooltip. That leaves us with either Nature's swiftness as we know it today BUT with a 1 MINUTE CD (awesome imo.), or Renewal which would heal the druid for 30% of maximum health on a 2minute Cd. Obviously as resto the choice would be NS as you could NS Healing Touch your partner for far more than 30% of their/your health or NS clone for increased pressure. It's cookie cutter choice even though that is what we are attempting to avoid with the new talents.

Second Concern: The Level 60 Tier

Force of nature is clearly DPS oriented so we will exclude it for resto druids. That leaves us with 2 choices. Tree Form as we know it, OR Soul of the Forest which would basically make our next spell 50% haste increased. Considering the fact that regrowth barely heals for 9k (18-19k crit) in full Cata gear today at 10k spell power, that is pretty much useless. Again another cookie cutter decision.

My last concern i'll address though there are many more is the new revamped Barkskin called Ironbark. You've made barkskin usable on allies -cool- BUT, you have increased the cooldown to 2 minutes. This is absolutely HUGE in pvp considering the fact that druids are struggling with survivability. Increasing the CD on our ONLY damage mitigation is NOT helping the class whatsoever.

We need some sort of damage reduction in the form of increased armor, or an ability like Focused Will on the disc priest which reduces damage taken by 10/20% when you are hit by a critical strike. Otherwise 5.0 will be a redo of 4.0 which is basically kill the druid with all of his CDs up.

Thank you for reading and hopefully you will address some of my concerns.
I have so much to say about the priest talents but let me sum up how I feel in a single word:


First of all, it looks like it was barely touched since you last put the talent trees up. Okay, that's fine. Maybe it didn't get the fine-toothed comb treatment like the other classes got. However, from what I saw of the last thread there was a -ton- of great priest feedback regarding these talents and not a single thing was really changed based on it.

Why is the levitate talent even still there? How is that going to be a useful skill? You cannot use levitate in combat because if you get hit, it removes the effect. So essentially this is going to be relegated to those few times you're fishing on darkmoon island and want to run more quickly to some floating wreckage to get there before the rest of the crowd.

I'm really sorry but when I look at the paladin tree and then back at the priest tree all I can do is frown in disappointment. You're doing so much to help the other healing classes seem new and fresh again and priests are clearly going to be more of the same. I see more POH spamming, I see more bubble spamming related stuff. That's totally fine, I enjoy playing my class enough so that keeping it the same is fine and familiar to me. But it does seem a little, I don't know, unfair when you see all the great stuff coming to other healing classes.

Also with regards to void shift, how is this going to be manageable when it comes to people using it to grief? People complain enough as it is with lifegrip and that's a party-based tool that doesn't actually take HP away from anyone. Now you're putting something in where, for example, in PVP a priest with low health can swap with a higher health mage standing next to them. Mage dies, priest survives because of it. How is that fair to the other person on their team? I'm not saying that it's purely a griefing tool because I see uses for it outside of that - obviously - but you have to consider the worst when you put things like that into action.

I just don't know. I have a lot of feelings. I would actually like to test these changes to get a feel for them before I really make a judgment one way or another, but this is disheartening. I know it's still pre-alpha and it's possible that resources were too busy elsewhere, but still. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt though and I'll be patient for the next release and the beta so I can actually play without making a 100% judgment one way or another.

Couldn't agree more, I was looking forward to some new and exciting things, but I can hardly see any differences from when I read the talents the other day (besides the removal of the 87 skill), where is our updates tree? very disappointing. It feels like it was done over night, shoved in a corner and forgotten about because they are to embarrassed to look at it and have to admit they didn't put the effort into it that it deserves.
I'm really liking what the devs are doing with Ret's combat-system! The original MoP changes were great, and now Art of War resets Exorcism's cooldown and we can store two additional holy power! The team is really on the ball. :)

Hammer of the Righteous and Divine Storm are too similar to Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict. I appreciate the separate AoE rotation, but HotR and DS are very bland. They are just AoE versions of single-target attacks -- without Divine Storm's healing component, they aren't even different in flavor!

On an unrelated note, what's the plan with offensive dispels? I see defensive dispels have cooldowns now, but offensive dispels haven't been changed on the talent calculator.
Warlock stuff looks mostly good, new soul fire seems incredibly powerful. Only thing that looks not so useful is the new Mannoroth's fury, KJ's cunning and Archimonde's Vengeance are both pretty compelling options but Mannoroth's fury seems too niche atm. I think expanding upon the auto-cleave mechanic that it used to be would make it comparable to cunning or vengeance.

But I know everything is subject to change and may very well already be outdated.

Also please consider reducing the cd on guardian demons, 5-6 minutes would be perfect.

Some warlock clarifications for you:

  • Archimonde’s Vengeance has a 1 minute cooldown.
  • Grimoire of Sacrifice grants a 30% boost for 15 sec, which drops to 15% for the remaining duration.
  • Blood Fear replaces Fear.
  • Soul Link replaces Health Funnel.
  • Harvest Life does not hit polymorphed targets.

  • Demon Soul is not listed at this time, but this is just an error in the calculator.
  • I have a question about the Druid level 87 ability, Symbiosis.

    The tooltip says that i am granted an ability of my current targets class based on my spec, and that my target will be granted a druid ability based on their spec and role.

    This sounds like a very fun an interesting ability and i can't wait to try it out, however, how will this work in the spell book and action bar? is there a specific extra action button that i need to have set aside for the granted ability? does the ability i am granted take the spot on the action bar replacing symbiosis, and if so, how can i recast it it to change the ability i am granted by using symbiosis on a new target?

    along the same lines, how will my target be granted the ability as well?

    i'm sure you have many potential ways to have this work out, i'm just curious as to what some of them are.

    Also... i'm even more excited for this expansion. Druid talents are phenomenal, as well as the abilities that are trained from the trainer. looking through that makes me really happy too. :) can't wait!

    Why would it be? We haven't even gotten a remotely good word on Beta. This is the second update...

    "The next update" is what I kept seeing bandied about as we all get some sort of structure. To see absolutely no change, and no mention that such changes are forthcoming, while other classes at least get a nod, makes me wonder how much attention priests are getting.

    I'm being petty and petulant here. I'm aware of it. I also feel that after the amount of "calm down, be patient, more news is coming," having a big announcement like this that doesn't even mention the fact that none of the three Priest speccs can effectively PvP or PvE in their current state sucks. Big, hairy, sweaty, stinking nuts.
    I thought you were getting rid of the 10% Physical Damage debuffs?

    EDIT: Also, can you please just make Innervate useful? Make it 10% of the Target's mana pool instead of the casters? Thanks.
    Prep and Shadowstep are still on the same tier...
    You definitely need both of them to be competitive in top end pvp. (Inb4 2000 rating heroes tell me I'm wrong)

    Dear Mr. Kaivax,
    I'll let you choice between chopping your right hand or your left hand. If we end up noticing that you can't perform as well to do you job, we will hotfix you in a few months, please do not worry.
    02/15/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Practical
    That's what I'm saying. Your tree looks amazing and the priest tree, by comparison, looks bland. And I'm not saying that to try and bring the paladin tree down - you guys deserve fun toys. But the priest tree is just...I don't even know how to bring it to words.

    That's a little ironic. Before these changes went, Paladins looked at the Priest trees and were colored with envy a bit.

    Path of the Devout is there I imagine for those moments in PVP/PVE where you *know* you can get away, but you just want some extra boost to safely protect yourself. That whole tier is dedicated to movement speed.

    Divine Star, Vow of Unity and Void Shift are still fun spells. People grief with Leap of Faith, and that's just something that kind of happens - it's like asking Blizzard to chose between fun design or catering to derps who want to troll their raid.

    Furthermore, Paladins have been asking for Sacred Shield for quite some time now. Call it nostalgia, or call it a really well designed spell - but it was very popular when it was around.

    Our Level 75 Abilities are all tied to Avenging Wrath, so while it may seem like it's very fun (and I'm sure it is), try to remember that it's not all the time.

    Finally, the last tier is something that I think is creative and really doesn't fit enough with the Priest toolkit to look over the aisle and say "I'm jelly, bro. :(" All the spells there have a short radius, have damage and healing properties and work very well with the overall look and feel of the Paladin class.

    You have nothing to worry about, friend. Your priest class and mechanics look very clean.
    Healing Forum MVP

    It's not the talents that are broken it's the spells and spec passives that are broken - right now probably only a holy priest could play but even then without Hymn of Hope they'd be out of mana so fast in a long fight or in a burst healing fight.
    02/15/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Marathel
    Why would it be? We haven't even gotten a remotely good word on Beta. This is the second update...

    This is the third update. It's the first update to happen in more than two months, after a substantial amount of feedback on what was missing from the trees was provided in a number of high-profile threads.

    Kaivax said specifically that Shamans and Hunters weren't quite done. By extension, that means that all non-Shaman, non-hunter grids were ready for testing in the alpha/beta cycle.

    Yes, we can expect that stuff will change and stuff will get resolved, but can you blame us for being disappointed after waiting for two months to come back and find we have LESS then we had yesterday?
    • For shaman and hunters, we still have a ways to go with the revamp of talents, and this latest calculator doesn’t have some of the changes that we’re currently working on.

    Good to hear, as my main is a hunter and my second most played toon is my shaman. I assume that both of those trees will be updated before another mass talent calculator update then?
    Uh, while there's stuff to be clarified/improved with Priests, I think it needs to be remembered that they haven't even started the Friends and Family Alpha, or are just doing so. I forget.

    Edit: Maybe there were so many awesome suggestions they're overwhelmed/still mulling over?
    Just a side note, I might roll a shaman just for Ascendance. Can't wait to see it in-game. I am so proud that MoP could be better than vanilla and best expansion so far! GO GO
    So...hunters are more PvP now?
    Hunter talents seem to favor PvP a liiitle too much...

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