You said you wouldn't nerf DS blindly

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02/22/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Tauradin
Neth, you know full well that turning the buff off is not an option for most guilds. I find it insulting when Blizzard continually throws that line out there, and I don't even raid these days. Let heroic BE heroic. The different levels of difficulty were there for those looking for it. Heroic was supposed to be for the top 2%. Normal for the regular joes. Now LFR for those that "wanted to see the content". Stop spoon feeding the heroic content to the LFR masses by nerfing any and all challenge in this game.


So, what I'm reading here goes something like this

"I want it to be harder, but when presented with the option to do so, I refuse to take it, and then after I refuse to take the option presented to me, I'll complain about 'spoon-feeding' or some other equally trite nonsense"
We're gonna need another Cataclysm Raid before MoP.

Kinda like how we needed The Sunwell after the Black Temple.


We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, the debuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it.

We also explained our thought processes in the original announcement blog about the debuff [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4326384/Dragon_Soul_Difficulty_Changes-1_18_2012"]here[/url].

For those of you who raided in Firelands and/or Icecrown you’re no doubt aware that as time goes on we want to keep people progressing by adjusting the difficulty. For any number of reasons a group may be having difficulty on a specific encounter each week, and our intent in adjusting the content is to ensure the ability to keep progressing, enjoying the content, and gearing up. With Icecrown we progressively buffed the players, and while this slow progression (and ability to opt-out of the buff) were both beneficial, it led to an expectation of your characters power, and once you left the raid you could certainly feel less effective. For Firelands we attempted to fix that by nerfing the content instead of buffing players, but we nerfed the content difficulty all at one time, which was counterproductive for players who really didn’t need as severe a change as we made. With Dragon Soul we’re attempting to do the best of both by having a progressive nerf to the content, keeping player power constant while providing small increases in assistance over a long period of time, as well as allowing players to opt-out of the assistance by speaking to Lord Afrasastrasz.




And as was said in the other thread repeatedly and summarily ignored, saying you can turn off the buff without giving incentive to is the exact same thing as saying "You could have everyone in the raid take off their pants slot item to increase the difficulty, you don't HAVE to have every slot filled with gear." It's foolish.
Hasn't even killed Spine of Deathwing yet, complains about nerf. Is this a joke man? You guys !@#$% about encounters being too hard and now they're getting easier and you still aren't happy? I don't get it. Kill the bosses, then complain.
02/22/2012 10:18 AMPosted by Goshi
Defend it all you like, dumbing this game down is ruining it. WoW had the vast majority of its players at the end of TBC when the game was OH SO HARD. These casual players you cater to aren't going to stick around when the vets who log on every day stop doing so.


The end of TBC was met with a new questing hub, a new 5-man, and nerfs to the attunements of the older raids giving people plenty of new stuff to do.

The "new stuff" was old stuff to some, but those players had Sunwell to look forward too. Basically, TBC dumbed down the game to maintain players as well - it just had the luxury of having 90% of the player base behind the raiding curve, so "last patch's" raid was new content to a lot of players.

Now, everyone who even tries raiding with decent effort can make progress in normal, mostly due to 5-mans and VP getting everyone caught up to the latest raid tier and a much faster pace than H MgT did.
If only a very small % of players clear Heroic then so be it. If it takes through the summer for some guilds to finally get it, so be it. If you couldn't do it when it was current tier, there's nothing to keep players from coming back when they seriously outgear it.

And I don't raid heroic! I'm merely a pug'r doing normal. I don't want to dedicate each week to a progression guild. I don't need to feel Heroics should be nerfed so I can do them too with a pug.

Heroics should be held to a constant standard that only obtaining gear will nerf it.
02/22/2012 10:22 AMPosted by Drumith
Except Wrath was when they had the most active subscribers.


Most of those players subbed in TBC and Vanilla. The growth in Wrath was anemic compared to the explosion of players during that early period. And that early period didn't have welfare epics to keep everyone feeling 'special.'

I didn't realize I needed to kill Heroic Rag to have an opinion on these nerfs, which don't even affect Firelands. I enjoy progressing without hand-holding, and right now my guild is starting to work on Heroic DS.
02/22/2012 10:26 AMPosted by Goshi
It's robotic because she merely repeated what has been said before, going so far as to link a previous post. Nothing organic about it.


Maybe Neth linked this because it ahppen to be Blizz's official position on the subject?
02/22/2012 10:09 AMPosted by Nethaera
Keep in mind that, the debuff can be disabled.


PLEASE keep in mind that raiding guilds aren't singular entities and optional buffs can cause A TON of drama when half the guild wants to keep the buff and the other half wants to turn it off. This is exactly what happened with my guild in ICC and the same thing is happening now.

These are HARDmode raids, there's really no good reason to introduce these buffs ESPECIALLY WHEN THE HARDMODE PLAYERS AREN'T EVEN ASKING FOR NERFS. Please stop dumbing down every aspect of this game.
02/22/2012 10:26 AMPosted by Octala
This is a gross generalization. The problem for most players with raiding is not their skill level. Anybody can watch videos and learn where to stand and what to do when, it's not rocket science. Monkey see, monkey do. Nothing to do with skill. Which is actually why I agree with you about not needing nerfs.


Exactly. The people who ARE still progressing (even before the buff was implemented) didn't want it. It was only the people who didn't have the skills to make it happen and didn't want to try harder.

For those people your "end destination" was normal mode. It's NOT like what you got to see or do in Heroic was somehow magically a different raid. One or two mechanic tweaks and bigger numbers. That's the only difference. So the people who are excited about the increase in the buff (or even its addition) are just LAZY. They didn't want to have to try harder or to improve and get better. They wanted the stuff watered down to their level.

And that is a mentality I really resent. If you've got what it takes shut up, get in there and do it. Otherwise boohoo. You've got TWO versions of the raid to play with already. Hush up and go play with them. Leave the elite versions of raids for the elite players who can legitimately tackle it.
If you'll read the exact same post, it was not so-effective in normal.


This is besides the point, we KNEW the buff was going to increase, the only thing in question was when, which seems like the end of each month until it reaches 30%, judging by ICC.


Yeah, 5% would only help people just shy of doing it.
Chances are, those stuck on normal are having sudden failures of drastic natures, not getting stuck by enrage timers or not quite soaking split damage as well.

10% is probably going to have a similar effect, more heroic progression than normal, but there will be some normal.


The other thing the nerf does is making the bosses go faster. Less time wasted on earlier bosses and more time on progression for those with very limited raiding schedules.


I think the mmo champ stats are a bit flawed in the sense of what the buff itself did.
Spine was a roadblock, and it was flat nerfed in addition to the 5% nerf at the same time.
02/22/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Goomba
Hasn't even killed Spine of Deathwing yet, complains about nerf. Is this a joke man? You guys !@#$% about encounters being too hard and now they're getting easier and you still aren't happy? I don't get it. Kill the bosses, then complain.




It's too FAST. That's the problem here. They've said there won't be any new content in this game til mists actually launches. You're looking at at least another 6 months of this before we get something new.
02/22/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Brushara
3 months of DS down, 9 to go.


Well at 5% a month it will be 30% by July. They'll probably have it at 30% about 2 months before the expansion. So yeah we're looking at around September for the expansion.
People who clear Heroic DS without the buff should get a little Star Sticker for their tabards.

That should quell the anger - it'll make them feel really special having that Sticker of Accomplishment for all the world to squint at.
Here is what I would do to appease multiple people:

If you complete heroic DS with the buff turned off (turning off the buff flags you for the achieve) you gain the title <the elite> with a red or green recolored Heart of aspects mount.

This mount and title will vanish come MoP. Get it while supplies last.

There, that solves that.
It's not an "option" to must guilds because most of these hardcore guilds don't care about challenge.

THEY WANT TO LINK THEIR SAVIOR OF AZEROTH TITLE IN TRADE CHAT.


It's about flexing their tiny epeen in front of other people who honestly don't even care about it in the first place.

It's a natural and primodial male instinct to exert some type of dominance over some other person...........even if it's a fantasy fictional game with goblins and dwarfs (LOL, damn, you sure showed how much of an alpha male you are!)
02/22/2012 10:21 AMPosted by Shargaas
Neth, you know full well that turning the buff off is not an option for most guilds. I find it insulting when Blizzard continually throws that line out there, and I don't even raid these days. Let heroic BE heroic. The different levels of difficulty were there for those looking for it. Heroic was supposed to be for the top 2%. Normal for the regular joes. Now LFR for those that "wanted to see the content". Stop spoon feeding the heroic content to the LFR masses by nerfing any and all challenge in this game.


This.

And yeah, the line about "turn the buff off if you like" is insulting. No one is going to do that.


If no one is going to do it, then I'd better never see a post again asking for more challenge in the game.

Blizzard is giving EVERYONE a choice here. If they weren't, the debuff would be fixed, non-optional. You either want challenge or you don't. The only reason to be so vehemently opposed to this is because you don't want other people getting the same things as you.

If you want heroic to BE heroic, turn off the buff.

If you want different levels of difficulty, turn off the buff.

If you don't want to be spoonfed content, turn off the buff.

If you just want to down bosses in a video game, leave the buff on.

It's your choice. Personally, I think it's too soon. But I really don't understand people who say they want challenge and then refuse to take it.

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