You said you wouldn't nerf DS blindly

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Some of you people are genuinely killing me.



How is it hard to see that a buff you can "turn off" is the same damn thing as something stupid like not wearing an item in your pants slot, or everyone in the raid wearing no rings, or something else equally absurd? No one's going to do it.




Guilds are collections of people, not individuals. As such, you will NEVER get a whole group of people you play with to turn off the buff if it doesn't benefit them in the slightest to do so. We want a challenge. We want a reward for doing said challenge so it doesn't feel like time is wasted doing the harder thing. Is this a hard concept to grasp for some of you people? Even single player games nowadays give different achievements for beating something at a higher difficulty level.
We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, thebuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it.


Is it just me, or is saying "you can turn off the debuff" like saying "You can play diablo 2 in normal mode, nekad, to make it more difficult!"

Yeah, it can be done, but there's no reward for increasing the difficulty. I get no sense of "Woohoo! We did it!" when the debuff isn't on. In fact, I feel like an idiot for not having it on to get my lewt... >_>
Why is this even a problem now?

The buff exists, and it's going up.
We knew this was going to happen, exactly what happened with ICC.


So why is it an issue again?

Because it is happening not even a month after the first nerf.

They haven't even given guilds a chance to really work on bosses without smashing the nerf bat again.
No progressing guild is going to turn off the nerf. Period. They would lose nine or 24 of their other raiders if they do and they will run off to guild where they are working on progression via the path of least resistance.


So... you don't want the buff... but you do want the buff.


Wut.
Why is this even a problem now?

The buff exists, and it's going up.
We knew this was going to happen, exactly what happened with ICC.


So why is it an issue again?


The problem is that they said that THIS TIME they wouldn't just nerf the content every 2 weeks, unlike what they did previously. They said they would watch how people were doing and keep the raid at a reasonable difficulty so we don't get bored of just going in and hitting the loot pinatas. But they lied.
02/22/2012 10:09 AMPosted by Nethaera
We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, thebuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it.


You know what would be extra nice in this type of situation? Being able to scale back the buff by 5% each time instead of a binary "on & off". That way people who thought no buff was too tough, but 10% is too much could go with the 5% buff.
02/22/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Zulgaro
The end of TBC was met with a new questing hub, a new 5-man, and nerfs to the attunements of the older raids giving people plenty of new stuff to do.


You're right, and it was needed to get everyone caught up to BT levels. There was a lot of content there that wasn't being seen but I feel that's exactly the opposite of what they are doing now. Now they release new raids/gear that cause the complete obsoletion of previous tiers prior to it really being needed. Everyone has seen DS that has wanted to, it's not the same in my opinion.

But really my point was that over the first two expansions this game garnered most of its players. The easymode of Wrath didn't cause subs to skyrocket.
02/22/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Arianenna
Keep in mind that, the debuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it.

OK, seriously?

Will all of you who think this is a logical argument just stop.

No progressing guild is going to turn off the nerf. Period. They would lose nine or 24 of their other raiders if they do and they will run off to guild where they are working on progression via the path of least resistance.

The only time anyone will turn the nerf off is once everything is on farm and they want to do it to flex their e-peens.


It's perfectly logical.

Don't like it? Don't use it.

I fail to see a simpler solution.
We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, thebuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it.

We also explained our thought processes in the original announcement blog about the buff [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4326384/Dragon_Soul_Difficulty_Changes-1_18_2012"]here[/url].

For those of you who raided in Firelands and/or Icecrown you’re no doubt aware that as time goes on we want to keep people progressing by adjusting the difficulty. For any number of reasons a group may be having difficulty on a specific encounter each week, and our intent in adjusting the content is to ensure the ability to keep progressing, enjoying the content, and gearing up. With Icecrown we progressively buffed the players, and while this slow progression (and ability to opt-out of the buff) were both beneficial, it led to an expectation of your characters power, and once you left the raid you could certainly feel less effective. For Firelands we attempted to fix that by nerfing the content instead of buffing players, but we nerfed the content difficulty all at one time, which was counterproductive for players who really didn’t need as severe a change as we made. With Dragon Soul we’re attempting to do the best of both by having a progressive nerf to the content, keeping player power constant while providing small increases in assistance over a long period of time, as well as allowing players to opt-out of the assistance by speaking to Lord Afrasastrasz.



*Edited "debuff" to properly read "buff"


I feel a need to chime in about that original blog post.

Blues, when did "see the content" become "get the highest item level of gear"?

It's clear that people aren't having trouble seeing all of the bosses. A lot of people see them all twice a week even; once on LFR, once on normal. Why do you feel the need to nerf the highest, OPTIONAL, difficulty for the players that can't survive any of the fights in LFR, much less heroic?

Also, since you're sticking with this debuff, don't forget to go back and nerf T11 heroic by 20% so that it's not harder than heroic DS. Thanks.
Incoming heroic mode lfr style.


If no one is going to do it, then I'd better never see a post again asking for more challenge in the game.

Blizzard is giving EVERYONE a choice here. If they weren't, the debuff would be fixed, non-optional. You either want challenge or you don't. The only reason to be so vehemently opposed to this is because you don't want other people getting the same things as you.

If you want heroic to BE heroic, turn off the buff.

If you want different levels of difficulty, turn off the buff.

If you don't want to be spoonfed content, turn off the buff.

If you just want to down bosses in a video game, leave the buff on.

It's your choice. Personally, I think it's too soon. But I really don't understand people who say they want challenge and then refuse to take it.




It's already a crappy situation in the game if you're on realms that are still actively going for the realm first of heroic madness. You expect any guild in their right mind when something like this is presented to them to turn off the buff? You can't have a server first title system in place and this at the same time, it doesn't work. If they made it so you can't get the buff and get the title at the same time, that would help. But it's much too late for them to do that.

Not to mention, you do content you have no business of beating with a % buff, after a few weeks you get gear you really shouldn't have had access to, you turn off the buff, the gear doesn't magically go away. You're aware of this, right?


You'd have a valid point if NO ONE anywhere had already downed 8/8 HM.

It's doable without the buff because other people have done it with LESS gear than people have who are trying right now.
Why is this even a problem now?

The buff exists, and it's going up.
We knew this was going to happen, exactly what happened with ICC.


So why is it an issue again?

Because it is happening not even a month after the first nerf.

They haven't even given guilds a chance to really work on bosses without smashing the nerf bat again.


Four weeks, one month, same thing.
I wonder what is the whole point of having progression any more.

Anyone can just wait a couple of months and clear the current tier once it has been nerfed into oblivion.

DS is is not even close to the difficulty level of BWD or BoT, does it really warrant a debuff? Do they really think it is fun to faceroll hard modes?
We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, thebuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it.

We also explained our thought processes in the original announcement blog about the buff [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4326384/Dragon_Soul_Difficulty_Changes-1_18_2012"]here[/url].




*Edited "debuff" to properly read "buff"


It's still dumb. There's no point to playing or raiding in this game and trying to progress if you're just going to keep erasing the difficulty when a tier has only been out a short time. It's stupid. I want to have fun raiding difficult content, not have loot handed to me. But no, that's not what the bad and casual players want. We can't have a place in Blizzard games for people who actually want to continue trying difficult things.


The real answer is "There is more money in the people who accept the nerf and those who wants them than there is in the group of people who don't want them.
Neth, you know full well that turning the buff off is not an option for most guilds. I find it insulting when Blizzard continually throws that line out there, and I don't even raid these days. Let heroic BE heroic. The different levels of difficulty were there for those looking for it. Heroic was supposed to be for the top 2%. Normal for the regular joes. Now LFR for those that "wanted to see the content". Stop spoon feeding the heroic content to the LFR masses by nerfing any and all challenge in this game.


So the top 2% of players should get the most mechanically interesting mode for themselves? The other 98% of players get two difficulties? What if I'm not a top 2% player but the normal modes are proving far too easy and boring for me?

Some people that wish to progress through Heroic mode don't have the time to wipe endlessly either. For example, to kill Spine you need to kill 6 other bosses, which is time consuming leaving you little to no time for wiping on Spine.

This buff is meant for the 20 maybe 30% of players that have cleared Normal DS and are now struggling on Heroic modes. It's basically giving us a fourth and soon to be fifth difficulty mode without them needing to create such modes, which would leave us with completely boring, uneventful boss fights due to production costs and time.
02/22/2012 10:43 AMPosted by Bullderp
No progressing guild is going to turn off the nerf. Period. They would lose nine or 24 of their other raiders if they do and they will run off to guild where they are working on progression via the path of least resistance.


So... you don't want the buff... but you do want the buff.


Wut.

If the nerf is there, it is going to be used. That is all. To say, "Just turn it off" is a utterly stupid argument.
02/22/2012 10:43 AMPosted by Meia
As such, you will NEVER get a whole group of people you play with to turn off the buff if it doesn't benefit them in the slightest to do so. We want a challenge.


I think the real problem is that some of you don't see the problem with these two sentences.
Also, we'll be dealing with dragon soul for a loooong time, considering how we're not in beta with MoP. I wouldn't mind actually beating my head against a wall to kill a boss. I HATE HATE HATE having a dungeon on farm just waiting for the next one. It's boring. There's no sense of "Oh! I have one more thing to accomplish before I 'complete' the game!"

I don't think we should go back to vanilla days where barely anybody killed C'thun (excluding naxx... that was waaay too short), but don't make it to where EVERYBODY can kill heroic deathwing easier then the other guilds who have a skilled group of players that did it first. =/

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