About the DS Buff

General Discussion
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In continuation of this thread which hit its limit.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4079621819?page=1

02/22/2012 10:50 AMPosted by Nethaera
Despite arguments to the contrary, there is a choice involved here. You can choose to leave the debuff on or turn it off. If you're looking for the challenge that doing the raid gives you without the debuff and your raid group isn't interested in turning off the debuff, that is still a choice that is being made. No one is forcing that on anyone. If you personally feel forced, then it may be an option to find another group that is interested in the challenge of doing it without the debuff.


It really doesn't matter. Once a raid is nerfed or players are awarded a buff like this anyone who clears the raid after the fact will be assumed to have done so with he buff on. There's really no benefit to doing it without the buff.

And yes, maybe I'm a special snowflake who likes recognition. But I argue that the game is now somewhat built around recognition since achievements were added to the game.

I don't recall who it was but someone made a great example a while back. If you were a runner and competed in numerous marathons but was never able to finish one however the race coordinators told you that because you've been struggling so much you can start the race a marathon 5 miles ahead of everyone else would you really want to take the handicap? You may finish the race but would you REALLY feel like you accomplished anything? I sure wouldn't.

Another example;

I'm a huge baseball fan. After Jose Canseco came out about steroids and a handful of the biggest names in baseball were found to have cheated the careers of anyone that put up big numbers in that era are now questioned even if they put up those numbers legitimately.

Its the same thing. It doesn't matter if you turn off the buff or not, people will just assume that you didn't.
Its the same thing. It doesn't matter if you turn off the buff or not, people will just assume that you didn't.
The only problem with this buff/nerf is the people complaining about it.

The ones that hate it care far too much about what others think of them instead of having fun and playing their game. You want a handicap? take it. If you want to flex your skill, record the fight and point out there is no buff so you can link it to everyone in WoW that cares.
02/22/2012 04:40 PMPosted by Milsa
Its the same thing. It doesn't matter if you turn off the buff or not, people will just assume that you didn't.
The only problem with this buff/nerf is the people complaining about it.

The ones that hate it care far too much about what others think of them instead of having fun and playing their game. You want a handicap? take it. If you want to flex your skill, record the fight and point out there is no buff so you can link it to everyone in WoW that cares.


So I guess that you're against the whole achievement system then?

In fact, even a new achievement would have been sufficient. Make it so that the achievement for killing DW with the debuff is different than the one for doing it without it.
[quote]The ones that hate it care far too much about what others think of them instead of having fun and playing their game. You want a handicap? take it. If you want to flex your skill, record the fight and point out there is no buff so you can link it to everyone in WoW that cares.


By that logic, why even bother with difficulty? Put the nerf from the start, people who want to use it use it, people who dont, dont.

the difficulty argument vs enjoyment vs nerf is laughable. If it was just about the difficulty, people could throw themselves into heroics with grey item lvl weapons and bash their head there. Guess what, people don't.
So I guess that you're against the whole achievement system then?

In fact, even a new achievement would have been sufficient. Make it so that the achievement for killing DW with the debuff is different than the one for doing it without it.
Actually, I'm fine with that. I see nothing wrong with giving someone 10 or 20 cheevos to play without the buff. There is nothing wrong with encouraging people to take the road less traveled and seek out more of a challenge.

It would basically be like when a guild does a raid with less than full setup. They don't have to but they did go ahead and make it tougher so they get rewarded with an achievement.

So yeah, give an achieve if it makes people happy and encourages people to play harder. There will always be people basing their status on in game achievements but at least then they would shutup about each and every buff/nerf.
Why do people care about what other people think? Unless you're sponsored and you're gunning for world firsts, what does it matter?

At the end of the day, this is a game and when you walk away from it, all you'll have is your personal satisfaction. What "xxDeathknightxx" thinks about your accomplishments means zippo.
02/22/2012 04:54 PMPosted by Fafuje
If it was just about the difficulty, people could throw themselves into heroics with grey item lvl weapons and bash their head there. Guess what, people don't.


Great point.
By that logic, why even bother with difficulty? Put the nerf from the start, people who want to use it use it, people who dont, dont.

the difficulty argument vs enjoyment vs nerf is laughable. If it was just about the difficulty, people could throw themselves into heroics with grey item lvl weapons and bash their head there. Guess what, people don't.
Well tell that to people who claim that challenge = fun. Every response about turning off the buff or going in with weak items is just a response to that first claim.

The thing is that, now people backpedal on that and are saying it's not just about challenge and enjoyment. So what is it? I think people should isolate the reason the play as an individual and seek out that.

If it is for challenge, well you know what to do.
If it is for rankings, well you may want to step it up (pending server progression)
If it's about progression, then the buff helps you do that.
If it's about epeen, then Blizz doesn't support your flaunting it around.
If it's about being special, then be special by clearing it prior to nerfs.


I think it's a combo of all of that to be honest. but back to my point. The whole "well just turn it off", is simply a response to " Challenge = fun for us" claim. In that context, it is 100% accurate.
02/22/2012 05:14 PMPosted by Melgrin
The buff was a ludicrously bad idea in ICC back then just as it is now. Nobody is getting held up by 5% or 10% damage and health on bosses, they're getting held up by mechanics. And once the buff gets larger than that, you can just ignore all the mechanics and everything that's supposed to be important and normal modes will be just as faceroll as LFR, heroics won't mean jack.


Another great point.
Baddie in trade: woot my guild downed deathwing in 10m.
Real raider: with or without the buff?
Baddie in trade: umm....without the buff
....baddie of course is lying through their teeth.
Real raider: well gratz, you must be looking forward to the heroics then, if you want you can tag along with my guild next week for a taste of heroics without the buff.

week later

Real raider: wow that baddie didnt know that you cant stand in the black stuff, or to click the button....wonder how he got past regular without learning the basic mechanics.
Baddie in trade: but....but....I got this achieve, I did regular!!
Real raider: judging by your lack of skills and knowledge it was with the buff....sorry dude but your achievement now means jack....as does ours thanks to you as there is no way to distinguish between with the buff and without.
Really, you think a 10% buff makes the difference between a "baddie" and a real raider.

-.-
And yes, maybe I'm a special snowflake who likes recognition. But I argue that the game is now somewhat built around recognition since achievements were added to the game.


We understand that there are players out there who do what they do for recognition and--dare I say it?--glory. Since we'll likely continue to use a model where we introduce a raid, then slowly remove roadblocks over time, there's a possibility that we could do something akin to adding a feat of strength for players who defeat an encounter in a non-debuffed incarnation, or possibly time-stamps on the armory raid progression section. At the very least, there are options on the table for the future. These aren't things we'll be able to do for Dragon Soul though.

Nobody is getting held up by 5% or 10% damage and health on bosses, they're getting held up by mechanics.


When a group is really close to taking down a boss, but just can't seem to manage it, a bump like this is sometimes enough to see them on to the next challenge.
02/22/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Daxxarri
And yes, maybe I'm a special snowflake who likes recognition. But I argue that the game is now somewhat built around recognition since achievements were added to the game.


We understand that there are players out there who do what they do for recognition and--dare I say it?--glory. Since we'll likely continue to use a model where we introduce a raid, then slowly remove roadblocks over time, there's a possibility that we could do something akin to adding a feat of strength for players who defeat an encounter in a non-debuffed incarnation, or possibly time-stamps on the armory raid progression section. At the very least, there are options on the table for the future. These aren't things we'll be able to do for Dragon Soul though.

Nobody is getting held up by 5% or 10% damage and health on bosses, they're getting held up by mechanics.


When a group is really close to taking down a boss, but just can't seem to manage it, a bump like this is sometimes enough to see them on to the next challenge.


This may be the case for some but I really believe that the mechanics are more of an issue for a lot of people and honestly I don't know what you can do to help these people without making all of the fights simple tank and spanks. DS has been out for how long now and yet every week that I do LFR I still see at least 5-6 people that for whatever reason just can't manage to push the big purple button during Hour of Twilight or Fading Light.

I really believe that at some point instead of making the fights easier and easier to help the people who are having problems you need to find a way to make these people better players instead. Making fight mechanics ignorable won't do that.
02/22/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Daxxarri
And yes, maybe I'm a special snowflake who likes recognition. But I argue that the game is now somewhat built around recognition since achievements were added to the game.


We understand that there are players out there who do what they do for recognition and--dare I say it?--glory. Since we'll likely continue to use a model where we introduce a raid, then slowly remove roadblocks over time, there's a possibility that we could do something akin to adding a feat of strength for players who defeat an encounter in a non-debuffed incarnation, or possibly time-stamps on the armory raid progression section. At the very least, there are options on the table for the future. These aren't things we'll be able to do for Dragon Soul though.

Nobody is getting held up by 5% or 10% damage and health on bosses, they're getting held up by mechanics.


When a group is really close to taking down a boss, but just can't seem to manage it, a bump like this is sometimes enough to see them on to the next challenge.


Daxx you seem like one of the most reasonable blues in recent times what exactly is the reasoning behind having flat nerfs to heroic modes. We will probably down spine either this week of next but it just isn't going to feel as epic, as it would if we downed it prenerf. Also is the nerfing of heroics something you see continuing in panda especially the flat nerfs which kinda suck tbh.
if everyone have the same "help" then it is still fair if you are competing with others, if you already cleared the content you are "out" of the competition. if you wanted more recognition then now with the nerf im sad to tell you but you are late.

it would only be unfair if only a feel ppl got that buff but since everyone have it then it is still fair enough, it is completely different from your marathon example since in practice everyone is running the same shorter marathon now since the long one already "finished"

if you truly want to beat the content in the same lvl as others turn the buff off, even if it is after you finish your "marathon". there are ppl that care about harder challenges or do you think ppl doing the ironman challenge are doing so to get a big shiny mount or a big unique achievement?

if you dont care about the challenge then ur marathon is still fair since everyone is running by the same rules so why complaining?
If you already did 8/8 in DS whether its normal or heroic, why complain about nerfs? I mean you already cleared the raid so theres no challenge to beat anymore. Like I said in the other thread, ppl were complaining about how fast guilds were beating DS within a month of its release and now ppl are saying an optional nerf is gonna be a bad things for guild progression.

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