Battle rez

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Hi, last week I was in a boss fight and I tried useing raise ally. It said that you couldn't use that in combat anymore. In a thread in the dk forms there was a reply about that saying that they were probably out of brez's. This makes no sense to me, is there a max amout of battle rez's allowed? Even if the party/raid group is full of druids and dk's and other classes that can (idk if there are anymore)? Thanks for the help.
03/04/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Baid
is there a max amout of battle rez's allowed?

Yes. It's to prevent groups from "abusing" battle rezzes to fudge the encounter.

From the 4.0.1 collection of blue posts (on the old, deleted forums):
Zarhym:

On raid boss encounters, you can only use one of these combat resurrection spells (so one Rebirth or one Soulstone) per attempt for 10-player raids. For 25-player raids you can use three forms of combat resurrection per raid boss attempt (so three of any combination of Rebirth and Soulstone). The count is incremented as soon as a player accepts a resurrection, so one can always choose not to accept if he or she wants someone else to get the resurrection instead.

This includes Soulstones (warlock), Rebirth (druid), Raise Ally (dk), and Reincarnation (shaman).
03/04/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Icedragon
This includes Soulstones (warlock), Rebirth (druid), Raise Ally (dk), and Reincarnation (shaman).


I am about 97.65% sure that Reincarnation doesn't affect the "battle rez" lockout anymore. (although it definitely used to.) The main reason being that it can only be used by the casting Shaman to res. himself and can't be used to rez other raid members.
03/04/2012 03:30 PMPosted by Baloo
This includes Soulstones (warlock), Rebirth (druid), Raise Ally (dk), and Reincarnation (shaman).


I am about 97.65% sure that Reincarnation doesn't affect the "battle rez" lockout anymore. (although it definitely used to.) The main reason being that it can only be used by the casting Shaman to res. himself and can't be used to rez other raid members.

I haven't killed any shamans lately and I pulled that from the Wowpedia article regarding combat resurrection, so it might very well have changed.
I can confirm that Shammy Reincarnation doesn't count anymore as I have definitely been in 10 man raid where we have used our BRez and our shammy has died and rezzed.
03/04/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Icedragon
is there a max amout of battle rez's allowed?

Yes. It's to prevent groups from "abusing" battle rezzes to fudge the encounter.


ugh, what a terrible rationale! (not you, Blizz)
03/04/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Imirak

Yes. It's to prevent groups from "abusing" battle rezzes to fudge the encounter.


ugh, what a terrible rationale! (not you, Blizz)


it's...true, really.

its an attempt to balance 10 v 25 where 10mans have one less criteria to balance their roster around.

03/04/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Imirak

Yes. It's to prevent groups from "abusing" battle rezzes to fudge the encounter.


ugh, what a terrible rationale! (not you, Blizz)


Well, not necessarily! The Battle Rez is a powerful tool, and no matter your preferred raid size, there'll often be situations where that one clutch player in the right place makes all the difference.

In Wrath of the Lich King, plenty of raid groups would prefer druids, simply because of their ability to Battle Rez - Death Knight's "Raise Ally" worked differently then, and Warlock Soulstones could only be used as a preventative, not like now where they're a battle rez in their own right.

Ultimately, it's intended to encourage using more than one class in your raid - and in 10 player mode, at least, it's very tense, deciding when and whom to use it on in the middle of the fight!
Back in Wrath you could use as many battle rezzes as you wanted. It was actually kind of stressful and not that fun. The new cap is a good thing.
03/04/2012 07:29 PMPosted by Ilithia
Well, not necessarily! The Battle Rez is a powerful tool, and no matter your preferred raid size, there'll often be situations where that one clutch player in the right place makes all the difference.


We never stacked druids for battle rezzes in BC raids, and those were significantly more challenging than the LK raids. If you are relying on battle rezzes to beat an encounter, you have more significant problems than class composition.

Class stacking has been going on forever, whether it was bringing mages for CC, warlocks for banish, pallies for aoe tanking, rogues for interrupts, shamans for bloodlust, etc, etc.

Blizz's original answer to class-stacking was homogenization, "bring the player not the class", where they spread out what used to be class-specific abilities (such as battle rez and buffs) to multiple classes.

Restricting the number of times you can use a class ability within an encounter is just a way to prevent players from finding creative ways to succeed.
03/05/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Imirak
Restricting the number of times you can use a class ability within an encounter is just a way to prevent players from finding creative ways to succeed.


Support your thesis, aye? From where I'm sitting, the conclusion is exactly the opposite- that putting a cap on "save-the-day" abilities forces players to come up with more creative ways to succeed (i.e. relying on player skill and not an auto-rez if someone messes up).

Restricting the number of times you can use a class ability within an encounter is just a way to prevent players from finding creative ways to succeed.


it's true.

but those creative ways then find their way on youtube and they stop being creative...become simply regurgitated. So to prvent this, blizzard makes the encounters only doable the intended way.

what's...the problem here?
I kinda agree that a lot of the blizzard designs take away from creativity. Most utility abilities that don't involve movement see relatively little use in raids.

Mind control? 99.99% of the time useless
Stuns, fear, etc? useless, unless the boss was specifically designed such that it's supposed to be used.
Mana burn? Again, no.
Dispelling boss buffs? psh.


I rarely see much creativity allowed when choosing what spells to use. The encounters are very specifically designed to allow only certain strategies by design. But I also understand why they do it, to prevent a boss from becoming trivial due to unforeseen consequences of class abilities. So instead they just make all the bosses immune to the class abilities.... a lot easier to balance bosses when you limit all the player abilities strictly to their healing, DPS, and any particular class utility that you specifically want to allow for a given encounter.
03/05/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Imirak
Restricting the number of times you can use a class ability within an encounter is just a way to prevent players from finding creative ways to succeed.


I can't help but feel your argument is "Players are smarter than Devs expect!" and then you answer that "Yes!"

There are more creative class abilities I wish I could use in a boss encounter, rather than just a battle rez, but for the most part, I think we can agree that we've explained the basics of the matter on battle rez's.

Personally? I wish I could've used Banish on Morchok to interrupt a Black Blood phase. Balanced? Probably not. But, I have this whole fun toolkit to use! I'd love to be able to dip into it once in a while!
03/05/2012 01:15 PMPosted by Ilithia
Personally? I wish I could've used Banish on Morchok to interrupt a Black Blood phase. Balanced? Probably not. But, I have this whole fun toolkit to use! I'd love to be able to dip into it once in a while!


Ya, that's the problem I see. We often get way more use out of our toolkit killing trash than we do on boss encounters. Even if the abilities suffered from diminishing returns the more you used them against a boss, I think it would be more interesting if more of our toolkit was usable against bosses.
Back in vanillia, there was this orc hunter some of us were not fond of. We "captured" him one day in STV, and using various disabling abilities (mind control, frost trap, sap, fear) we dragged him back to Stormwind to be formally executed... it took a long time, but he had it coming.

My point is, if you can imagine doing something like that to a boss, that would be my thought on why we can't use most disabling abilities on them.
Nobody ever said it would be EASY to make an interesting, yet balanced fight that actually made use of our various abilities :-). It still sucks, imo, that many of our utility abilities that make us the most unique are also the ones that get almost 0 use in boss fights.

If there's a will, there's a way. They already figured it out with PVP - diminishing returns makes it so you can use your various CC abilities, but at a price and with reduced effectiveness.

Restricting the number of times you can use a class ability within an encounter is just a way to prevent players from finding creative ways to succeed.


it's true.

but those creative ways then find their way on youtube and they stop being creative...become simply regurgitated. So to prvent this, blizzard makes the encounters only doable the intended way.

what's...the problem here?


The problem is exactly what you said... the encounters are only doable the intended way.

Get to a specified gear level, learn the dance that Blizz has programmed for this particular fight, collect your loot, then move on to the next dance.

There is a lot of fun in finding creative ways to beat boss fights. Part of the innate appeal of RPGs is choosing how you play, not learning how you are supposed to play.

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