PVE Gear

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03/07/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We want the PvP community to grow, so at least one of the goals here is to let players cross over more easily into PvP than they can today.

and you will still fail with mop model, getting a set of ruthless is extremely simple, you don't even need be successful to get it, but a ruthless character vs 3/4 or better cataclysmic geared person a huge difference in stats (let alone adding op pve items). The only real solution is stop scaling things to such extreme levels including "t2" ilvls in pve; in fact sc!#*@@@ the entire idea of "t2" weapons in both pvp/pve would, at most t2 gear should have an extra gem slot or two.
Well, I for one just want to say thank you Daxx for answering all these question we PvP'ers been dying to have answerd.

If you want people to use PVP trinkets in pvp, have every pvp trinket have a cc break or a CC immunity buff on it's own cool down as a secondary ability to the trinket's primary one.

Since CC strength and counter strategies are so unbalanced, I guarantee you players will take the trinket that adds additional CC break or CC immunity over most every other trinket.
only a fool learns from his own mistakes, a competent person learns from the mistakes of others

while a truly wise person can learn from both.

I've been playing since the start of classic and i will admit i feel skeptical about the effort blizz is putting into pvp this new x pack because as far as blizz's history/track record with pvp shows ..... its not a good one

but we will see. only time will tell
Well this is the best writen explanation so far as to how you plan to make PVP and PVE closer together. Thanks

But it sounds like you are moving the entire game closer to PVP and away from a PVE centered game. All players now have base PVP stats. That just blows. I hate PVP, because I suck at PVP.

In no way do I want to play a PVP game, that is one thing that has made wow attractive. PVP could be completely ignored. Now we all have PVP stats, what is next forced PVP, via mandatroy liniear PVP quest lines that can not be skipped, or maybe PVP to open up an new map area, or some such mandatory PVP. Maybe not in MOP, but some time in the future?

This is a mostly PVE game with PVP side play. Making the PVE side of the game closer to PVP so it is easier to transition is the pits!

Just one more reason to not buy MOP

With all do respect, WOW has always been about PVP and some PVE. I am sure Blizzard hears all the QQ's about "Forcing" pver's to go smash kids faces. I am more then confident there will be safe zones or guarded places that you can level in. Your crying out before the beta is even out.... On that same note, PVP is a great tool to better understand facets of your class. Like ummm... CC, which in all honesty is practicality gone in pve at this time. You as a shaman have a plethora of snares and abilities to slow targets; rockbitter also has the ability to taunt / increase ur threat while reducing your damage. I enjoy both aspects of this game and have played them thoroughly since WOW release.

Its time for pve and pvp to co-exist more fluidly and mists is going to get people engaged like never before.

On a side note, I am sure Parius is a "Wrath Baby" - welcome back to real wow were pvp and pve are closely related.
03/07/2012 03:30 PMPosted by Gunny

But... any baseline help you add to the undergeared player helps the highest tier geared veteran as well.

For example, increasing health pools in Cata. Sure, undergeared players now had more health, but that didn't mean much because they still couldn't kill players who also had more health AND had pvp bonuses. I guess this change would draw fights out longer (and that's a good thing), but that certainly doesn't do anything about player effectiveness.

Does that make sense? I just don't want to see you guys make a mistake here.

Not really. They'll just adjust the curve on Resilience on the PvP gear, or whatever they end up calling the stat. For example I have roughly 43% damage reduction in my current resilience gear. So my 4470 or so resil is worth 43%. The equivalent in MoP will be worth roughly 13% on top of the baseline 30%. So you'll grind the same amount of gear for only a 13% improvement. That's assuming they want to keep the resilience cap and curve about the same.

Going PvP to PvE seems to be the opposite though. PvP gear is lower ilvl and will be budgeted worse with no bonus like the 30% defense offered. I guess the intent isn't to lure any PvP types to PvE, eh?

Just as confused as you are... It is a tall order to balance out between pve / pvp - I have offered an idea to create 8 piece gear to offer some reward to pure pvp gear apposed to seeing more pve mixed with pvp. We require some incentive to gear beyond normal pieces.
03/07/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We're also aiming for the power curve from un-geared to geared level 90 player to be flatter than it currently is at 85, which should also help.

But you're completely defeating the purpose of flattening the power curve by adding power to this.

Yeah, the PvE geared player is going to have some defense against other players, but those other players are going to be hitting harder. There's going to be a new 90 every day, not everyone is going to be in an equally matched setting.

After the initial rush, then you have players who possibly have lower quality gear than the PvP gear, so they're doing less damage than everyone else, while taking more damage than everyone else. For this to actually flatten the curve, instead of doing the exact opposite, both defense and power would have to be generally weak stats.

Basic resilience might really be the best answer, with restrictions on what you can use in rated pvp
03/07/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Lothi
Players who invest time, and are successful in raids should be rewarded accordingly. I see no reason for PvE trinkets and legendaries to be disallowed. You should have an option to mix-match your hard-earned gear without restrictions, anywhere, anytime. People who scream "NOT FAIR" should not take PvP so seriously. If you lose an occasional arena game because someone was using legendaries, who cares.

Because PvP is supposed to be based on skill, not who has better gear. You're competing, the idea is that everyone is equally matched, and the better team wins. The point of getting those PvE pieces out of PvP is so that if you pick two random people, they're equally matched in gear. This is actually a small downfall to the conquest system... If you go on vacation for a week, you're actually behind in gear, something else Blizz might want to think about before MoP is released.
03/07/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Lothi
Should players be punished by RNG-queing against a counter comp and consequently lose a match?

No, they shouldn't. However, that issue is a far more complicated one than PvE gear. The fact that there are other issues is no excuse to leave different ones unresolved.

03/07/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Lothi
It's impossible to eliminate chance factor from the game.

True. But something like imbalanced PvE gear has a solution that's exceedingly easy. And again, just because we can't solve all the problems, it doesn't mean we shouldn't solve any of them.

03/07/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Lothi
And if you could, the game would become boring and dull.

Depends on how they do it, plus "boring" and "dull" are fairly subjective anyway. That said, rated PvP is supposed to be based on skill. Skill is clouded when things are balanced, which undermines and devalues ratings and rewards.

So, as long as competitive PvP is still supposed to revolve around skill, your point is pretty moot.
Thanks for the post, probably the most informative Blue text to show up in the PVP forums in a while.

I think this helped clear up a lot of things for me but I am still concerned about legendaries. Your examples are presumably using items of the equivalent tier and season. So if a raid weapon is already equivalent in damage to a PVP weapon, doesn't this mean a legendary will still outclass a PVP weapon significantly?

Most 'get your PVE out of my PVP' complaints are directed at uniquely powerful procs and legendaries. How does this system address those concerns?
daxx. i would like to join the others in thanking you for trying to clear up this concern about the new stats.

but i think the concern between pve gear in pvp is only one or two pieces (normaly trinket and a weapon or two). so we have to wonder how much pvp power and defense will be on each item to counteract each pve piece. but i fear that it will be way to drastic and getting pvp gear via pvp will be more annoying because the gap between a geared player and a non geared player.

I have a feeling that the only way you (the company) will be able to take a page from guild wars and finally balance pve/pvp gear in pvp by just scratching the entire system and doing to each pvp instance (rated and random) what you are doing with challenge mode dungeons. normalizing everyone's gear to the same level and giving everyone the same amount of stats for their class / spec combos.

but a problem comes with this system as well... what about world pvp? well keep pvp gear in the game but only have its stats useable for world things. otherwise the rewards for pvp are purely for vanity or gold purposes, such as cool transmog sets, mounts, and pets for the vanity, and trade skill things for the gold purposes.

but all in all. i hope this does help against pve gear in pvp. i can work out a painful grind on one toon if it means a bit more balance for purely pvp players.
03/07/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We want the PvP community to grow

If this is truly something you care about, and intend to design around, then I am actually really positive about mists. All I ever wanted as a PvPer was for you to value it and thus put the time in :*).

And, after reading about "brutally hard" challenge mode dungeons in yesterdays blog, while previously thinking that challenge modes were just going to be heroics with a stopwatch, I am also super positive about my chances of doing some fun PvE. I really truly liked 5 mans in the first few months of Cata but had to stop and be satisfied with just PvP after heroics got nerfed and gear levels got too high.

the answer is 1v1 balance.

a million subsequential problems like pve gear would solve themselves
the answer is 1v1 balance.

a million subsequential problems like pve gear would solve themselves

This logic works only to a certain extent. I agree that 1v1 balance should not be ignored entirely, but it should also not be a goal. If a tank or healer spec is perfectly balanced 1v1 vs a DPS then they are now no longer a tank or healer.
the answer is 1v1 balance.

a million subsequential problems like pve gear would solve themselves

This logic works only to a certain extent. I agree that 1v1 balance should not be ignored entirely, but it should also not be a goal. If a tank or healer spec is perfectly balanced 1v1 vs a DPS then they are now no longer a tank or healer.

which is the original purpose of multiple specs

which MOP is essentailly doing away with

with will make everything worse

ben franklin coined the definition of insanity as doing the same thing twice and expecting different results. this is what blizzard does consistantly

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