PVE Gear

Arenas
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03/06/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Another way to think about it is that we are pushing PvP and PvE gear closer together with two changes

How close together, I wonder, do you want to push them?

On one hand, Defense and Power are intended to give PvP-geared players an edge; but on the other, dev statements downplay their significance (GC's "gravitate to," your "slight edge"). Are these new stats necessary?

One can gather that you believe Stamina, Resilience's damage reduction, and PvP-related ability bonuses are the most important for PvP gameplay, since the latter two are exclusive on PvP gear and the former is in higher amounts than in PvE gear.

If the real problem is crossover due to PvE damage and a lack of Resilience, why not eliminate it as a disparate factor? Make all damage reduction baseline — let's use your 50% figure. Even without Power or Defense, now, players can't easily kill opposing characters through burst damage. If PvP gear instead trades off some output stat weight (Strength, Agility, Intellect) for Stamina, and offers PvP-related ability bonuses, the difference between Ders and Jillian is about the same: Ders can deal more damage while Jillian can take more punishment and make use of two set-bonus tricks that Ders doesn't have. But it's simpler, and the gear curve for PvE players is even more forgiving.
So for example, in an RBG, let's say that Cunning of the Cruel hits on average 4 people per proc. One proc per 9 seconds. 4k dmg per shadowbolt.

That's almost 2k dps. In PvP. From ONE trinket.

Players in PvP can do around 6-10k dps depending on class, spec, being trained etc.

Let's say they do 8k dps.

That's a 25% increase in damage.

There is NO WAY that the raw PvP Power of ONE trinket will increase player damage by 25% alone. So, if another Cunning was to be put into the game, it would be MANDATORY for players to use it to stay competitive, just like now.
Here's what I'm reading:

For pure-DPS classes PvE gear will be much better than PvP gear in PvP.
For Flag carriers PvP gear will be much better than PvE gear in PvP.
If you want to PvP well as anything else; you will have to do both and mix and match PvE and PvP gear for PvP.

This is not what I want at all.
Clearly the solution to this problem is to give warlocks a shadowbolt volley baseline.
So, right now, there isn't an alternative to using awesome PvE gear in PvP. A great PvE trinket beats anything from PvP.

In 5.0 a trinket with PvP stats should beat out a PvE trinket in PvP.


That sounds great, honestly. I just wonder how committed you (Blizzard) is to this concept. It's something that has been a problem for a very long time, and on-use or proc trinkets can scale damage greatly (most notably in the case of frost mage mastery). Are you really dedicated to ensuring that this doesn't happen in Mists?
Here's what I'm reading:

For pure-DPS classes PvE gear will be much better than PvP gear in PvP.
For Flag carriers PvP gear will be much better than PvE gear in PvP.
If you want to PvP well as anything else; you will have to do both and mix and match PvE and PvP gear for PvP.

This is not what I want at all.

The theory works fine for raw stats. The way you posted it isn't right in terms of Raw Stats.

The flaw in the plan is procs. Tentacles. Sbolt Volleys. Lightning Strikes. Legendary 5 CP spamming. Legendary duplication of spells. Massive Stat so strong that they eclipse the pvp procs and baseline such as DBW.
looks good until a mechanic such as a cunning in mop comes in like blae said :P
03/06/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
.

You guys are actually changing aren't you?

Ignore the hater posts, despite what happens, understand you give this community hope when you post here. You're slowly becoming more of what we want you to be.
The biggest culprit/worry is the *offensive* procs (because of the massive amount of burst); defensive procs (such as healing) tend to be easier to deal with since healer mana is a much more finite resource, and healers - by any good team/situation aren't supposed to be just having their way all willy nilly.

so...easiest solution: Offensive/Damage Trinket/Weapon procs don't work against other players. That'll stop them from using them in PvP right quick.
03/06/2012 03:57 PMPosted by Seraphys
looks good until a mechanic such as a cunning in mop comes in like blae said :P


The formula for resilience already works very well. At least it did until ridiculous PVE gear game into play.

We all know that it looks good until something like Cunning comes into play...

The problem with that is that they're replacing one system which got ravaged by PVE gear with another system that will STILL get ravaged by pve gear, but offer PVE-ers more ease of access.


no it doesnt work right now as you can see mages stack everything and don't need a OP pve trinket to be good. They stack pure mastery pve pieces and run like 3.3k resillence.
It’s quite depressing that even Blue’s don’t really understand what the PVP community is complaining about in terms of PVE gear being a huge issue in PVP.

It’s NOT people using full PVE gear in PVP, it’s people using a single trinket or weapon from PVE that has some stupid @#$% proc on it that either changes the way they can play or provides a 20% damage boost for NO REAL REASON.

Take Glaives for example in S3-4, running identical comps the one that had Glaives had a MASSIVE damage advantage over the other team purely from damage output. You look at what it’s like now with legendary staffs and cunning and it just gets stupider...

This proposed changed does nothing to fix the issue of broken @#$ trinkets or weapons with procs that win games. Would have hated to see a TSG during S9 running around with dual heroic Gurths... 5 tentacles up, priest dies through pain supp and HoP.
The difference is smaller however because Jillian’s PvP stats aren't part of the item budget.


See, this is was was missing with the blog post. With the way it was said, the new pvp stats wouldnt have made a difference in pve. But because the new pvp stats aren't part of the items normal stats budget, now it makes perfect sense. PvP gear will be useful in PvE, but less so because of lower ilvl. Which has been shown time and again doesn't make a bit of difference in PvE.
Something as simple as doubling ICD/CD of non-class related procs/on-uses as well as halving their damage/stats/effects in PvP would go SO far in alleviating these issues.

It's a Big change but a Simple change.
I was going off what blae said about trinkets... Not offpieces or mainsets. Mainsets/offpieces are redic pve gear and never have been. Trinkets is a whole new story.

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