PVE Gear

Arenas
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The people who think this is a horrible change just don't understand it.

Lets say you have full bIS pvp gear and have 50% total Defense and something like 20% power or something, Essentially you hit a full pvp geared person as hard as if they had 0 pvp gear, but if they wore 0 pvp gear you would hit them 20% harder. Basically means damaged can be balanced along norms rather than outliers.

Lets say a person in BiS Heroic Level Gear has a tier of pure stats over someone in full BiS pvp gear (Weapons would be closer) and does 10% more damage in a pve setting. He loses the pvp fight because he may do 10% more damage, but the pvp person is doing 20% more damage to the other player, and mitigates the extra damage the PvE geared person is and then some.

And when a bis pvp person joins your raid, assuming he takes some effort to reforge to hit cap, won't be at such a massive disadvantage. His gear may be lower itemlevel, lets say like wearing BWD/BoT gear when going into a pug firelands made of mostly people expecting a quick clear. Its lower, but hes not going to be completely worthless and carried.

There still is a reason to have both pvp and pve gear, but the ENTRY LEVEL into both is eased. Not the high end, the very base level. The high end for each will still be better than the other.

Outliers like Cunning and Vial and DBW are easy to fix. Don't make damage proc trinkets ever again. Darkmoon Card Death and Bandits insignia from wrath were overpowered. make them pure stat bonuses, maybe with damage increasing procs (haste/crit/spellpower are all fine.) the reason that Cunning and Vial are so ridiculous is because they are scaling damage procs, and for cunning its a massive amount of aoe damage.
I invite everyone to carefully read the words I posted in this thread. I invite you to read them with an open mind, and without the presuppositions which so often act as an impediment to mutual understanding.

I chose to post here specifically because I know this issue is important to you. Don't waste the opportunity to have a dialogue by willfully misinterpreting or reinterpreting what has been written. If you're confused, or you have a question, then say so or ask it. My intention here is to make the incoming system as clear as possible.

No, those of us who think this is stupid just know better.

When you take a minute and actually think about the logistics behind it, there are HUGE things that don't add up simply because they cannot.


Okay. Like what?

Be specific.


Outliers like Cunning and Vial and DBW are easy to fix. Don't make damage proc trinkets ever again. Darkmoon Card Death and Bandits insignia from wrath were overpowered. make them pure stat bonuses, maybe with damage increasing procs (haste/crit/spellpower are all fine.) the reason that Cunning and Vial are so ridiculous is because they are scaling damage procs, and for cunning its a massive amount of aoe damage.


Do you actually believe there is any chance they won't make an OP trinket//weapon in Mists?
03/06/2012 04:07 PMPosted by Schmeebs
he people who think this is a horrible change just don't understand it.


It's not a matter of people thinking it's a horrible change. It's actually a very good and necessary change for the game.

People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.
Okay. Like what?

Be specific.

How can the stats on a PvP trinket in MoP ever stand toe-to-toe with a proc trinket like Cunning in MoP.

The baseline PvP Power will never make up for a 25%+ damage increase.
As long as raiding wont give edges to PvP anymore then im happy. If legendaries or OP trinkets are still musts like the past.. then raiding is kinda forced.


I chose to post here specifically because I know this issue is important to you. Don't waste the opportunity to have a dialogue by willfully misinterpreting or reinterpreting what has been written. If you're confused, or you have a question, then say so or ask it. My intention here is to make the incoming system as clear as possible.

1. How will you prevent a trinket like cunning, which has an aoe damage proc, from being obtained in PvE and used in PvP in Mists? Passive stats (PvP power, defe,se, intellect, w/e) do not compare to procs.

2. If you intend for PvE weapons to do close to the same damage as PvP weapons in equal tiers (you first post said PvP will be slightly higher damage, but more defense) then what will happen with legendary weapons? Will they also be less damage or will they be more damage than PvP weapons?
03/06/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Areos
People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.


One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.

Legendary items might be an outlier, because legendary items are legendary, and the additional item levels will probably make them competitive with PvP items. On the other hand, we also expect legendary items to be *much* more rare than they are currently, so they'll also be less of a factor.

Ders the rogue: wears PvE gear.
Jillian the hunter: wears PvP gear.


God I love this company so much. Never stop what you do.
03/06/2012 04:10 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I chose to post here specifically because I know this issue is important to you. Don't waste the opportunity to have a dialogue by willfully misinterpreting or reinterpreting what has been written. If you're confused, or you have a question, then say so or ask it. My intention here is to make the incoming system as clear as possible.


I have a few questions I'd like to have answered if possible:

-- Do you intend for legendary weapons to be best in slot for PvP classes capable of using them? If so, wouldn't this be contradictory to the design philosophy behind this change?
-- When you state that PvE gear will have a higher item level than "equivalent" PvP gear, are you referring to normal or heroic raiding gear?
-- What do the developers plan to do with PvP trinkets in order to make them best in slot for PvP again? Insignias and Emblems are underpowered in PvP while proc-based trinkets like Vial of Shadows and especially Cunning of the Cruel are far too powerful.
-- Have you ever considered implementing a stat on PvE gear that's reminiscent to PvP Power and Defense, but for PvE scenarios? For example, a stat that increases damage dealt to non-player characters only?
This clarification from Daxx has eased some of my skepticism. The key line:

03/06/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The item level difference is the main distinction.


I was imagining a scenario where the two different gear types were pegged at the same iLevel every raid tier/season. I see how this gives them the flexibility to tune incoming/outgoing damage at a more granular level while ensuring people who mostly PvE/raid don't get 'blown up'. The important part is to have the PvE gear at a higher iLevel such that players can actually make a dent in a player dressed from head-to-toe in PvP gear but still be at a net disadvantage (though that gap has to be relatively small for this to work IMO).
03/06/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Daxxarri
People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.


One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.

Legendary items might be an outlier, because legendary items are legendary, and the additional item levels will probably make them competitive with PvP items. On the other hand, we also expect legendary items to be *much* more rare than they are currently, so they'll also be less of a factor.


the extra stats on the legendary are understandable to be higher, but will the procs be redic, like dragonwrath was where a double mage frostbolt could be devestating?
03/06/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Daxxarri
One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.

So what you're saying is that the dev team won't make any trinkets that will increase pvp damage by more than a pvp trinket?

Because that sounds like a pretty empty promise to be honest.
03/06/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Daxxarri
People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.


One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.



03/06/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Daxxarri
People are concerned over whether powerful PvE weapons and trinkets will continue to dominate the competitive scene, which, considering WoW's past history, is a very legitimate concern.


One I've at least partially already addressed. The goal is to make a PvP item pretty much always the best choice, even in trinket slots.


You keep saying that's the goal, but you're yet to explain how that's actually going to happen. An AoE damage proc on a PvE trinket cannot be replaced by passive stats on a PvP trinket, no matter how good those stats are.
Okay. Like what?

Be specific.

How can the stats on a PvP trinket in MoP ever stand toe-to-toe with a proc trinket like Cunning in MoP.

The baseline PvP Power will never make up for a 25%+ damage increase.


The same thing is true of most On: Use trinkets, and some procs. The simple amount they give at a single time is much more useful than the overall damage static stats would give.
Okay. Like what?

Be specific.

How can the stats on a PvP trinket in MoP ever stand toe-to-toe with a proc trinket like Cunning in MoP.

The baseline PvP Power will never make up for a 25%+ damage increase.

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