Cataclysm Post Mortem -- Dungeons and Raids

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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03/12/2012 03:47 PMPosted by Squeakydevil
How many people have see DW fall on any difficulty level? Im willing to bet that it isnt the entire population. Some have no interest in raiding.

I have interest in raiding. I have zero interest in raiding in this expansion, nor any desire to reward those who created this misconceived monstrosity. A bad first impression -- and destruction of the guilds I raided with previously -- were wounds that were impossible to heal.
03/12/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Zatheth
enrage timers to me is blizzard's way of saying you're not wiping and your group is working together well as a team.let's penalize them and wipe the group

Enrage timers are there to keep groups from stacking healers.
Spine was disapointing doesn't seem deathwing should have gone down like that, but it did make since. but i didn't like how easy it is to kill him and the tenticals kinda made me think a little
I am trying to find my character. She is a mage by the name of Ingeline.
This is probably far to late to allow complaint to be useful so instead I think praise may be more appropriate.

3.0 dungeon difficulty was great. People said they wanted "vanilla" and I felt "vanilla" was actually served up. Then the audience cried - A LOT. Right song but wrong for an audience that just wants the queue to pop, their dungeon instance done with zero tolerance for "the randoms". It's one thing to form a group from tradechat, fly there and have to put up with some tripping a few times over "Mend Rotten Flesh" interrupts as opposed to investing no time at all and kicking some 'retard' on to his next dungeon queue.


Thank you for challenge modes. I watched Nick's overview on MMO Champion and am thrilled to say the least. Everything says "win" to me about this because it appears to have all the right context to compliment the level of difficulty.

There were world bosses in Cataclysm? I found this out mid 4.3. Having Garr outside as a world boss was a great idea. Having Garr outside as a world boss with loot that isn't crap is an even better idea, pity.

The reason kazzak and azuregos loot was awesome should/could be attributed to their min/max stat allocation. The healer headpiece [azuregos] was completely unbalanced but had so much healpower everyone "had to have it", at the cost of spi/sta/int. The legs off Kazzak were desirable for the same reasons. No guild truly needed these items to progress. They were simply awesome, some might say, BiS items if not very interesting items - items worth fighting over for more than a few hours.

If the best thing to come off these bosses are a mount or some achievement then this content was wasted effort IMHO. They will fast become as trivial as a mount nobody cares about, achievements everybody has and a guaranteed shard nobody wants. Its awesome to see some priority to a great aspect of classic wow that has gone downhill. Having 10 guildies shift to level 20 warlocks in response to a kazzak spawn vs. having someone choose to continue herbing in response to a doomlord kazzak spawn is a stark contrast. Not even knowing about Garr for 3 patches (I didn't play in 4.0 bar a week or so) says it all. If the tables on these aren't finalised , please consider "upping the ante" so the great work applied to these bosses is enjoyed to it's fullest.

Thats a post mortum on World Bosses Cata, Wotlk and BC combined.
well where to begin fist thing i guess that need to be addressed is raid lock this system is horrible with the lack of boss content in ds and firelands the one kill per week has left so many sitting on thumbs 6 days a week got 15 alts going now but would have been happy to not have any! seperate the 10/25 man raid lock would be a great start to making the low raid boss count not seem so low. the icc days of hitting 25s on thurs was the best now 25s are so few and far between i can say ive never got to do one this entire xpac that makes me feel like ive missed a whole half of the xpansion and to find anyone not save to 10man already is imposible i mean realy why bother saving a raid lock for a 25 man when same gear drops in 10man and wish you would remove the 25 man acheives it makes me sad to look at then uncompleted in my list and am pretty sure there are thousands that share this same thought if you want people to gear so fast i understand make each boss lootable once a week its not out of the realm of what you can do raidfinder has this option why not 10/25
second is the nerfs happen way to fast and way to offten it is quite disapointing to see a current teir raid get nerfed into faceroll when there is not another on the horizon please save the nerfs for when the new teir comes out then you can 25% nerf the previous, all the title farmers will be happy and the raiders in search of a challenge dont have to be degraded by a nerf on the current teir
dung were great i acutualy have only one thing to say the hots were way to easy was all ramped up from za zg for the next challenge only to find them a bit dissapointing on difficulty
I never will claim to be "l33t", part of a "l33t" raiding guild, or anything of that such. My post is to try to think of something that may work for the community as a whole and I want to engage others to do the same.
I've come back after a long break since The Burning Crusade/WoTLK.

I mean, heck 30 dollars to buy 3 expansions ! er....(two now being that TBC is no longer considered an expansion of the World of Warcraft Franchise) but to get the battlechest,WoTLK,and Cata for 30 dollars ?

I was about to make a thread of my own pertaining to this subject.....but I feel I might be able to voice my opinions on the psychological ramifications of the current implementations of what cataclysm has done to the playerbase here instead.

(forgive me if it seems like the topic is becoming derailed but I feel it actually pertains to the subject at hand even though it doesn't initially seem like it)

To add to the game,....

I think especially with our downtime we have awaiting the next expansion, if blizzard brought back attunements ( BUT NOT NEAR AS GRINDY) that could give us something to work towards WHILE we got ready to raid.

I think it could help (or completely obliterate management lacking) guilds that want to push progression in this game for PvE content .
On TOP of that it could slow down the consumption of said heroic/hardcore raiding as well.

Instead of blowing through Heroic Madness in 2 weeks by the top 1% of guilds of WoW, it could take them ...2-3mos for the HM:Madness.
Then those 3-7 months that we anticipate the next expansion would be cut nearly in half and blizzard wouldn't lose nearly as many subscribers as they are losing

Another thing that attunement did for the game, it also made sure that guild members had a role to do they had a responsibility(and even a need to be needed for some individuals even), so they would go gather mats/farm mobs/ etc before the raid and had a function that led to a success of a raid boss being killed.

Sure it sucked back in Nilla/TBC least people that ground out those mats didn't leave the guild because they had a sense of stock and didn't want to up and leave a guild because of said petty arguement and Guild B has better perks.

They had time devoted into the game and they had time devoted into their guilds. So why would they try to leave something good for something that seemed shinier ( level 12 guild for a level 25 guild for example) [not going to say that is the end end all reason]

I think ALSO ,...

if they buffed the Gear stats of HM vs NormM vs LFR..... that the disparity would place an emphasis on the challenge-reward portion of the game.

Why would I want to go chase after those extra 10dollars getting swept up by the wind when I already have $20,000 I just found in the street ?.... It becomes relative at that point !

follow me ?

Think of these hardcore HM raiders that want to be "l33t" sitting at the Bank/Auction House in their (416's for HM deathwing) they can do that with pride and gladly do so. They'll be happy doing it on top of being able to sneer at their lesser geared equivalent normal/LFR buddy because his stats are significantly lower.
BUT the normal geared guy will be gear dude I don't have THAT kind of time but hey....check out these nice 402s anyhow.

But guess what,...these guys DID it, so they deserve the best loot and took the time to destroy the Big Bad Monster/Entity/Dragon/Force of Nature\darkness that threatened azeroth.

and then they fistbump each other (in my ideal world anyways)

And do you think that guy that did LFR only is really going to care about his Nerd L33tness that he got the best gear ???
I pretty much can guarantee you that he's only desiring the expediency of acquiring the content as casually as he can being that he's more than likely under time constraints and can't devote much time to the game.

Casual gamers win
Progressive gamers win
and Hardcore gamers win.

So this is my suggestion :

Maybe Make the people that want to do Heroic Raids to GET the achievements....go back to an attunement system ?

The normal mode people have like....1/3 of the attunement cost ?

and well LFR,...give them 5 quests they have to do in order to use the LFR feature for said raids ?

This way the Hardcore gamers are going to be slowburning through the content, The casuals can pick the game up and drop it and the normal gamers have a something regular but don't devote their entire time to this....

Give the HM:Raiders significantly higher discrepancy for their gear in their progression .

give the Normal mode geared guys a small but noticeable chunk of stats not equating to a HMode raider and give the LFR player purples that well....are....there.
Also how about the gear that was earned PRENERF and on HEROIC MODE gets a special notation by it that means : you got this gear without nerf and HMode.

By the logic I would assume that nerfs would be slower to come out/and or completely eliminated with my proposed idea ahead . And that is by saying getting rid of gradual nerfs and including 2-3 layers of difficulty...I don't know,....Blizzard if you guys are reading this then toy around with these ideas a bit. :)

Warlords/Knight Champions Blessing
"XXXX Loot" was obtained through great deal of turbulence and difficulty in XXXX war with XXXXX gods/plague/boss/raid yada yada"
and it would be on the Heroic mode gear that is on there even before the nerfs come out that drop for heroic progression.

Feelin me ?

Let's use Illidan as an example ( since he's a personal favorite of mine)

Cursed Vision of sargeras drops off illidan.
has 671 armor
and other stats out there on top of that with sockets.

Lets say....if you did this without a raid buff from the game (or difficulty nerf as some call it)
you get an extra gem slot and +XX % of base stats that you would have been buffed by/nerfed by for the encounter.

So lets say... your nerf to the difficulty would have been 30% to beat illidan. and there will be a baseline to start at when these nerfs are continually applied so in 6 months you have a 60% raid nerf you don't get +60% raid gear buff.

you would get 30% more AGI and 30% more Stam because of said nerf. In other words your gear would be 30% more awesome because you chose this harder difficulty.

Do any of these ideas sound like good ones to you guys ? I'm trying to brainstorm at 4AM and i don't know if it's working lol.

forgive me for reposting this but I feel that my information could contribute to help in this discussion
A blue post by Takralus included the statement "Actually, LFD and LFR have been very popular tools." That statement seems to imply that doing an LFR is a pleasant experience. This sentiment seems prevalent throughout the Blizz development staff. I hope I am wrong on that fact but if I am not this is the reason I choose to post (even though it will end up on page 36 or later and lucky if anyone from Blizz reads this).

I am the GM of a mid sized raiding guild. I know of no one that finds doing LFR pleasurable. Doing an LFR with your own group of 25 toons, or a large portion of the 25, makes it tolerable. Doing LFR IS considered a necessity (essentially) if you want to raid. Does this sound like the reason Blzz gave for making the 10 and 25 man lockout be a common lockout, so people would not feel they had to do 25 mans. It is exactly the reason they gave for making the common lockout because people felt they had to do something.

It is infuriating to keep reading in blue posts "how popular LFR is". Please understand, I put forward a hypothesis that because a large portion of the WOW community participates in an event does not make it popular. Blizz, maybe you have made it mandatory.

If I could impose my own rule on the Blizz developers, it would be something like the following:

No blue post can include a statement as to how popular or fun LFR is without that developer have pugged an LFR live a dozen or so times much like the players FEEL THEY HAVE TO DO (for each toon on top of that).
This is my thought on the direction Blizzard should take, but also on the direction that our community should take. I'm going to discuss my thoughts on the model of 'quicker smaller tiers' as seen in Cata.

1) a community of people that love PvE in WoW should have one consistent goal:

To make raiding in a video game a hobby that is esteemed, widely understood, and socially recognized. That is the goal you should be going for. That is the most fundamental way to justify the time and efforts you put in.

2) Blizzard's strategy for keeping itself alive, and keeping this industry alive:

To push the development of E-Sport. E-Sport brings publicity to the company. It strengthens the industry. Blizzard is already favoring this route. (I just spectated NASL on-site two weeks ago.)

3) To a reasonable extent, a common sport is something that is estemmed, widely understood, and socially recognized. (Self-explanatory.)

Preliminary Analysis: What should we do?
1+3) Making raiding into a sport will acheive the ideal goal of our community.

2+1+3) Blizzard is trying to push the concept that a game can be a sport. Therefore it is pushing a concept that MAY achieve the goal of our community.

*) However, there is a catch, a missing link: is Blizzard going to push that concept specifically with Raiding (not necessarily just WoW)?

We need to do everything in our power to allow Raiding to become a commonplace element in (at least Blizzard-run) E-Sport events. We need to fill this gap.
Further Analysis: How is this related to this thread?
Does the speed at which we consume content directly impact the likelihood of Raiding evolving into a sport?

Let's not jump to conclusions too fast, and prod around a bit. Firstly, to make sport analogies more intuitive, I'll coin PvE as a 'racing sport' where overt sabotage of your opponent is prohibited, and PvP as a 'boxing sport,' where the reverse is true. We will focus of course on the concept of racing sports.

In the current paradigm, a raiding Tier is the best analogue to a 'Season,' defined as a period of time, during which contestants are given comparable challenges, and at the end of which the relative success of contestents is tallied and ranked. If you are really into analogies, you can view the worldwide speedclear showdown as the playoffs, but we needn't even go that far.

While the crux of a racing sport is a question of 'how fast,' a more profitable question would be just how fast is 'most entertaining to society.' The screentime of pro teams need to be milked, whether via live BiS farms or other means. Gambling groups might need time to place bets. Drafts might happen between the season and the post-season, unlike traditional sports.

All these things however scream for one resource: TIME.

Because this is a racing sport, and not a boxing sport, weekly streams can't feature different 'opponents.' You're gonna see the same guys, perhaps doing the same routine, or perhaps switching this and that guy in and out, or perhaps comparing player stats such as DPS, maybe not too exciting to the couch guy with popcorn. What this picture clearly demands is something different to watch for between stream to stream: VARIATION.

You need to stretch out the time, and increase the variation. How do you do that?

Well, how about a ten-month season, like a normal sport? That's something in the ballpark to start, since you want this to have all the peripheral social impacts that a normal sport should have.

And how about having MORE RAIDS per tier, and more elaborate loot tables and looting schemes? That would give you variation.

Tonight you watch vodka raid Abyssal Maw. Three days later you watch Paragon raid Firelands. Etc.

If raiding is to become a serious sport, the length of a season MUST be regulated, and the variation in content MUST be robust.

So, if a season is consumed too fast or too erratically, it will hinder Raiding's evolution as a sport. If a season features too few bosses, too few raids, or too low of a difficulty, it will lose entertainment value in more ways than one.

'Less content quicker' is just going to result in having less metrics to measure the contestants at any given time. In Starcraft tournament there is the question of choosing different arenas (maps), to keep things interesting between match to match. What is there in Raiding, other than having a number of racing courses to choose from?

As an aside, a sport, to an extent, requires the general population to play the same game at different skill levels. Whether this is done through LFR, or Nerfs, or both, is actually not so important of a deal to tar-and-feather a fellow player over.

What is important is this implication: if WoW is to become an E-Sport, tendancies towards the consumption of insubstantial content on a rapid basis should be something we need to discourage as a community.


I'm not supporting this conclusion just to be an elitist prick. Nowhere did I resent ANYBODY's enjoyment of the game, and within reason I did not ask to bar ANYONE from any content. To be honest, before I sat down and thought this whole thing through, I wasn't sure I'd be for or against consuming content quickly. This is the result of me thinking out loud, not against any identifiable group, but for the good of us all.
My two cents, as a casual raider:

Background first, I've been playing since Vanilla (my guild killed Nef a bit before Naxx came out, and didn't get the Twin Emps down when it was current content). I've played in relatively hardcore guilds in the past, but my current guild is made up of a groupd of RL friends who are 'older' gamers (mostly around 30yo) who work 9-5pm and have lives outside the game, so time is limited. Consequently we only raid one night a week, and have been doing that for the entirely of Cata.

So now my experiences with Cata (and I think most of my guild share these opinion to some degree). I loved the harder heroic dungeons, it was nice to get a real challenge back into the 5-man game and force PUGs to actually use CC and the like (I'm a little concerned about the easier 5-man heroics proposed for Mists, but if the Challenge Modes live up to their name that'll be fine). Tier 11 was interesting and probably pitched at a good level as far as I'm concerned, our guild didn't actually get Nef or Cho down even on normal before FL came out, mainly because we didn't get our 10-man group together and start raiding till quite a ways in (around the time 5.1 came out), and being RL friends we have a range of hard-core-ness, which hampered progress a little. I did think the devs did a good job of making the fights interesting, given just how much raid content has been released in this game over the last seven years, there are only so many tricks in that bag you've gotta think, so fights like Atramedes and Chimaeron were quite entertaining.

Firelands was a great instance. By the time 4.3 landed we had cleared it on normal and had a couple of heroic kills under our belt (Shannox and Staghelm I think), and I still haven't got Rags down on heroic. Again interesting fights (although a little less trash would be nice, but a single-tier needs something to kill time on those lonely nights ;]).

DS initially disappointed me. We killed Hagara on normal on day 1, and while that felt pretty good at the time when we realised a guild as causal as ours had downed half the instance that quickly some of the sheen wore off. That said I think the difficulty level after that was pretty good. Spine and Madness were both pretty challenging encounters even on normal (I don't think we got Madness until the 5% buff came in). Morchok heroic could definitely do with being a bit tougher, but the other fights I've seen (we've downed Zon'ozz, Yor'sahj and Ultraxion on heroic) all seemed to be about an appropriate level (even if Ultrax is getting to be a bit facerolly with the buff at the level it's at now). So for a guild at our level (with reasonably skilled but time-poor, and occasionally disorganised, members) I think DS is fairly well-placed, and I for one am hoping to smash DW in his face and get my title before MoP lands. I definitely find the heroics to be vastly more entertaining than the normal fights, the greater complexity and edge-of-death feeling is a hell of a lot of fun, so to the hard-corers who think casual raiders should just be happy with normal-modes, I say...something I shouldn't post in a public forum ;)

As far as LFR goes, I loathed doing it on my main (which I did do every week while there was still gear in there for me), but I think mainly that's because it felt like something of a chore, and also perhaps that I'm a healer and occasionally got annoyed at people not pulling their weight or standing in the fire. That said, I don't raid on either of my lv85 alts, so actually being able to get into raid content to see it from a different perspective is quite nice, so I do see it as a boon and something that should stick around.

If I had one major criticism it would be the length of time between 4.3 and 5.0. While it's given my specific guild time to potentially get through the content while it's current, which is nice, I realise that a very large portion of the 'real' raider population are getting crazy-bored by now. It'd be nice if there was a compromise of sorts, something in the game that hardcore raiders could do to keep themselves entertained while the rest of us peons grind away at the kills they got months ago? I'm not the guy to say what that is though...challenge-mode raids perhaps? But some would say that's what heroics are / should be. I leave it to the devs to figure it out ;) But hey, we all have pet battles, right?? ;D
The only reason I've been running LFR is because of the abysmal drop chance of Windward Heart in 10 man regular and heroic.

Across 3 characters I have seen it drop 0 times in regular or heroic 10 man raids.
0.5% chance per boss, really?
Over all I found cata raiding to be quite fun. I healed all of cata on my shaman here as well as a priest and a druid. When DS came out we cleared normal but not before the nerfs. If I recall correctly we were stuck on spine pre nerf. We were one of those casual guilds that only got to raid a night or two a week that needed that little bit of a leg up.
However much as we may of needed help to get the last two bosses down the blanket nerf made the rest of the fights we had on farm very dull. It would be very nice to see the nerf bat taken to specific bosses that the raiding population seem to be stuck on rather then every boss in a raid.
Sure wish paying customers from the states could chime in on the EU forum thread that the devs seem to be watching at

As I posted above LFR is considers a must for raiding guilds and the devs seem to like to correct/disagree with anyone that has such an opinion.
I did not read every post but many posts seem very "end game"/end expansion type posts. I really liked Cata at the start, it was very hard and if you were a pally heals like i was, you know how hard it was to adjust to running out of mana and seemingly "nerfed" heals after spam heals of end of LK, lol.

Cata made me relearn my holy pally and to be creative again, so thx for that. I read the blue stickies and learnt what blizz designers were doing

I hardly raided in Cata but sure as heck ran the dungeons and heroic "over and over " again as heals, dps and tank

The lvl 85 dungeons were very hard at the start and a bit of a shock, Cc was needed and thought given to them but i enjoyed them even in pugs at start when i was being kicked as a "crap heals" cause "I needed mana all the time and slowed them down" or we wiped. I was glad of the ilvl requirement that helped reduce poorly geared people (yes, pvp tanks could be real shockers but were easy to spot at least)

ZA and ZG were just too long for me in pugs/wipes and even with guild a bit long though some bosses could be bypassed, so i still mostly avoid those 2 places

Hour of Twilight dungeons i liked because they were hard (at the start) but reasonably short and again some interesting mechanics and dps checks so yes, could do them "over lunch"

TB pvp did not mean much and still cannot be bothered especially as the rewards are not that great now. I still enjoy the TB dailies there more than the Fireland dailies. doing the "open fireland daily quests" i really liked on my first toon, by the 3rd toon i decided Firelands dailies could be forgotten as the quest chain became a pain to me and not as valualbe to rewards to do.

I thought Cata was almost cruel to melee DPS, my ret pally had a tough time staying alive (for the first few months) while my ranged toons could max dps easy in most situations and stay alive.

So yes, now we have ilvl 378 instead of ilvl 333 gear so and ilvl 397 heroic instead of ilvl 356 so running most dungeon stuff is a breeze and DS is nerfed by 30% and LFR is a spamfest mostly but good for a few runs to see content i had not encountered.

That is my post mortem :)

Looking forward to MOP
The initial heroics of Cata were great, I wish blizz could have stuck to their guns, people would have come around again and nerfing everything into the ground didn't seem to change much subscription wise. I also loved the revamped zg/za (aside from the reused locales). Yes I pugged these things, yes sometimes the grps failed but so what? If there's no chance to lose what does winning mean anyway?

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