Hail's Guide to Sub PvE (5.4)

Rogue
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Fixed the bug where CDs wouldn't be used if the Tier 15 4pc bonus was enables. Seriously, how do people consider me an authority?

Edit: Results are still looking a bit funny so I'm gonna hold off on posting them.
Regarding Subtlety's overall position in PvE:

02/26/2013 09:35 AMPosted by Ghostcrawler
- We are concerned that fully geared Subtlety, Enhancement and Windwalker DPS are still too high. None of these are particularly easy specs to play, so it might be okay that given that players won't realistically be able to hit their theoretical maxima. Just wanted to let you know they are on our radar.


Looks like good news, now all we need to do is figure out how to play it at 100%!
I wouldn't celebrate too much yet. It looks like sub really takes off at the end of the tier not because of agility scaling but rather mastery scaling and how it interacts with RPPM trinkets. In all likelihood few players will reach the critical threshold and even fewer while progression is still relevant.
Interesting, I was wondering how mastery's EP would be affected by the trinkets.
Regarding Subtlety's overall position in PvE:

- We are concerned that fully geared Subtlety, Enhancement and Windwalker DPS are still too high. None of these are particularly easy specs to play, so it might be okay that given that players won't realistically be able to hit their theoretical maxima. Just wanted to let you know they are on our radar.


Looks like good news, now all we need to do is figure out how to play it at 100%!


I play it.... 98% of the time =D .... exception: Guardians.
02/26/2013 12:52 PMPosted by Fierydemise
I wouldn't celebrate too much yet. It looks like sub really takes off at the end of the tier not because of agility scaling but rather mastery scaling and how it interacts with RPPM trinkets. In all likelihood few players will reach the critical threshold and even fewer while progression is still relevant.


By this, do you mean that proccing mastery with the Rune trinket will net greater DPS than proccing haste? I've messed around with it a bit on PTR, but only stacking haste with the rune so far. I plan to play with a closer to equal prioritization once I download the new build tonight. For example, messing with my live toon, I can quickly reforge to:

Crit 2700
Exp 2550
Haste 4800
Hit 2550
Mastery 5200

I also tend to agree exp is a bit undervalued, and I switch specs occasionally mid-raid for a cleave fight so I prefer to stay capped. But on topic, this route really *sounds* like it might benefit the most in BiS 5.2 gear with Rune trinket. I'm already able to energy cap in some PTR dummy situations with the 4pc t15 (even after dumping full energy prior to SB), not to mention if the Rune trinket were to proc 24k haste or w/e it is in PTR gear, the capping would be even worse. So I agree with other posters I've read, and from my personal "eye tests" keeping the two stats close in order to still benefit from haste, but the slight edge to mastery in order to maximize DPS for duration of SB and during Rune procs.

Then again, maybe low energy regen inside mastery-based Rune procs (subtracting haste) could cause dps loss during a ShD (less ambushes?).

Anyone ran 5.2 sims that agree/disagree with my assumption?
Hail can you math nerd me really quick and tell me what 5 - 6 is? I keep getting fish, but I think I am wrong.
I'm guessing -1 but I can't be sure - yesterday I decided the square root of 2 squared equals 4. (sqrt(2)^2 = 4) Ironically what mattered was that it was rational so even if I didn't correct that mistake it wouldn't have mattered but point is don't trust me.
So what is the final verdict about sub pve for 5.2?
It should be strong single target if played well, although somewhat lacking in the AoE department. The buff to SV has helped though, and baseline Preparation further helps Sub's burst in phases where such things matter.
Thanks Haileaus, now...

What about the reforges?

Besides the obvious 7.5% Hit/Exp, Agility...

Which one of the secondary stats has the upper hand?

Haste/Mastery or Crit?
Agi>>7.5% hit > everything else. The order of expertise/haste/mastery/crit depends a lot on gear and is generally very close. You should check out shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com for your weights, since that is the best site we have for determining such things. That said I should also have EP values in my guide too.
Hey Hail. I'll be trying my hand at sub, so I popped in here to learn some basics.
I noticed you haven't updated the talent choice recommendations with the new ones.
Thoughts on them?
Err damnit! Well basically the only requirement is that you have Subterfuge and Anticipation. Whoops, I'll try to get on that.
I'm seeing few/no logs for sub rogues...

I do believe it was pretty well summed up by a friend of mine, "Too hard for bads, not optimal enough for goods".

Besides speccing subterfuge/replacing my 5.0/5.1 LFR gear, I don't see a whole lot that I can improve on rotationally (besides small mistakes, clipping SnD, allowing it to drop on the Breaker because I'm retarded and focusing too much on keeping armor debuffs perfect, etc)...

For reference, http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-skzewpd2w27zruyf/

At least I can be a mid-tier player in bad gear and still take #1 parses, because <3hipsterspec

(tips, mocking, etc welcome, mostly posting this for reference purposes)
I'm seeing few/no logs for sub rogues...

At least I can be a mid-tier player in bad gear and still take #1 parses


Those are LFR logs. I don't know of many people who bother recording LFR raids... I'm not sure why its even a thing. Though ranking #1 for an LFR log is better than not, many raiders are finding how well assassination does pre-4p. Plus the positional requirement for some fights can make or break it. Every guild at the moment has nothing on farm... so normal/heroic-mode rogues are going to spec what they think will bring the most damage. Plus its "safer" to come to a fight you've never done before as mut or combat.

Give it time and we'll see more rogues trying Sub, not just from LFR, but normal/heroic modes too. I might give it a try for the first 3-4 bosses next week.

Those are LFR logs. I don't know of many people who bother recording LFR raids... I'm not sure why its even a thing.


Yeah, why optimize your performance in anything but heroic? Why compete? (Note: extreme sarcasm)

Though ranking #1 for an LFR log is better than not, many raiders are finding how well assassination does pre-4p. Plus the positional requirement for some fights can make or break it.


No arguments there, assassination is easier to play, and does approximately the same damage in my play, with no positional requirement (and seems to pull ahead in execute phases in fights with long/high dps execute phases, such as Horridon).

Every guild at the moment has nothing on farm... so normal/heroic-mode rogues are going to spec what they think will bring the most damage. Plus its "safer" to come to a fight you've never done before as mut or combat.


Right, and the core of my point is that sub seems a little behind, given that it has downsides, and not as many marked upsides as the easier specs. Although looking into the future Sub does seem to be scaling a bit better than !@#/com, although on my part that's purely speculation.

Give it time and we'll see more rogues trying Sub, not just from LFR, but normal/heroic modes too. I might give it a try for the first 3-4 bosses next week.


Well, one can only hope. Maybe get some people that have a louder voice in the community to raise concerns, or to find new/inventive ways to push damage as sub. I've found some uses for it in fights where bosses have a charge animation >30 yards or so, shadow dance, and abuse Cloak and Dagger to never break contact with the target...

But whatever, I'm about as casual as it gets these days, and I'm a pretty die-hard sub nerd, so I'll keep playing the hipsterspec.

And I'll keep logging LFRs. 'cuz d*** it, it feels nice to be #1 at something.
But whatever, I'm about as casual as it gets these days, and I'm a pretty die-hard sub nerd, so I'll keep playing the hipsterspec.


:O

Kahunah! I haven't seen you in forever man! How have you been? I think the last time I talked to you was the end of 4.3 doing those GDKP runs! I am doing pretty much the same thing as you, and playing super casually as sub. I dabbled with assassination and combat and I either need a sweatband to play one or a book to go with the other. But, I totally get the idea of play optimal even though it may not be heroic. I try to do the same thing as well, actually. :P
Hello Mr. Hail, I hadn't posted in a while, but I had a theory... no not theory craft... just a theory.

With most of the bosses within ToT having some special circumstance, such as mass aoe and / or damage increases. If you were to make mastery your secondary stat ahead of crit, theoretically, your dps "should" increase dramatically.

But that's just a theory.
Believe it or not I haven't run anything in ToT this patch. That said, mastery definitely gets better if you are AoEing, and the more you save things for high-damage phases, the better mastery gets too. The latter, however, is pretty small.

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