Dev Watercooler – MoP Looting Explained

General Discussion
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Haven't read the full 10 pages, but how do you pass?

Several times now there's only been one boss I'm interested in (or I'm there solely for the completion reward)... It seems this new system doesn't give me an option to pass.

I mean, how is it beneficial that I get an item from a boss that has nothing for me when it can be better utilised by another player?

It seems like the new loot system isn't about making the loot system better, or involving fairness at any level, but reducing the QQ? Is that such a smart thing to be doing?
03/27/2012 03:29 PMPosted by Grimwolf
I’ve seen some suggestions that we allow an option for essentially “I’m happy to get loot beyond just what my main spec can use,” and maybe that’s the kind of approach we could take, but let’s make sure the basic design works first. For now, there are other avenues, such as dungeons, faction gear, normal raids or older content to provide off-spec or cosmetic gear.


A simple solution when you get to the point that the basic design is working well would be to ask each player with a pop-up message box at the beginning of the raid which spec they would like to roll on, and lock that choice in for the entire raid. That way a geared ret pally could contribute to the success of the raid and work on his holy or prot set.


Something like that would ideally have a gear-check, to make sure that the Ret pally is actually already geared. Otherwise you'd have shadow priests going Holy for a quick que but gearing for shadow. And thus being rather bad heals.

Also, unless ALL loot is converted to the LFR system, Valor really needs to stay where it's at. The luck-based system WoW has can be truly awful to unlucky players. You can't upgrade armor that you don't have because it never drops D:
03/27/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Divinara
Because other players are now causing your winning roll to be evaluated. Therefore, again by contradiction, your statement cannot be true. Everyone is rolling individually. Why do you guys have to make this so complicated?

Blizz should just come out and say "If you roll above an 80, you get loot. This means that if everyone in the raid rolls an 80 or above, everyone gets loot."

(I used 80 because that is the spot where "on average" all bosses will drop the same amount of loot as they currently do.)

A rather funny consequence of this is that EVERYONE will be worse off than they were before. This is because if even one person pushed the "I don't need that but it's designed for me" button they are giving their chance of winning to the rest of the raid improving their odds (effectively adding roughly 5% chance to get loot to every other player).

Lastly, it's worth noting though that this system works "in favor" of DPS specs (improves the odds they get loot relative to the old system) and works against tank / healing specs (reduces the odds they get loot relative to the old system). This is because every role is now treated equal but there was previously more tank loot / tank (and healers) than there was DPS loot / DPS.


I'm not following your criticism at all. Blizzard has already said numerous times that your chance of winning isn't tied to other people in the raid. In other words, it will likely be possible for everyone in the raid to win loot or no one to win it. It will be like 25 separate slot machines rolling at the same time. Your chance of winning will have nothing to do with whether other people win or not.
I do love the AOE loot thing, been playing SWTOR until either mist beta comes out or the PRE Mist event starts, doing LFR over and over and not recieving my polearm kinda makes me upset every week. So definatly when the Charms of Good Fortune come out this might not happen, i mean DS has been out how long and i still dont have the 1 piece i been working for? Gets kind of repetitive and dissapointing. It either Doesn't drop or the many hunters in the groups win lol. Anyways this isn't a QQ thread just using examples. As for the valor it seems ok, Increasing the stats on your gear over time is a good idea, but is that gonna cause less people to run LFR because they don't get valor loot? I think it might reduce the amount of highly geared players, which in a way is good and bad. But hey you can't predict these things, you go to throw it in and see how it works, yea?
I think the decision to not make loot tradeable or turn-off-able is a mistake, because it doesn't allow players to "do the right thing".

Lets say I've been grinding this one boss for weeks, and have every drop I could possiby obtain from his loot table. Under the proposed loot system, this boss will still continue to pass me loot I dont need and taking a winning roll from another raider who really could use the loot. While its great that this loot system eliminates politics, it also eliminates conscience to the detriment of everyone else in the group.

I think a better system might exist where if one chose to pass on a boss loot drop pre-pull (knowing they already have everything they want fron that boss), perhaps they could get some sort of stacking bonus to thier next roll on a boss whom they may not have all pertinent drops from.
As far as people looking for offspec gear, why not allow someone to choose what style of gear they want as part of the queue options.

Just have a row for role (tank/dps/heal) and a seperate row for loot you wish to aim towards (tank/dps/heal). It allows people who have all their main spec gear to still play their main spec and obtain offspec gear as a perk.

Example might be myself who has enough normal/heroic/rf gear that nothing can drop that I would want while queuing for dps but my offspec healing gear isn't up to the point where I'd feel comfortable healing for the RF group. In that case I just queue as a dps role and check only the healer section for loot eligibility.

I understand some would take this to their advantage of just queuing as one role and never their offspec while just soaking up the gear because they feel it's easier, but it also allow for someone to obtain offspec gear without queuing in sub-optimal gear for that raid role just because they want that sort of gear. (Imagine a tank queuing in blues for RF while his mainspec is 400 ilvl just because he want's some tank gear *shivers*).

As far as transmog gear you could always have a seperate selection for "transmog" where you are eligible for any gear you can equip, not necessarily for gear you'd use playing.

Not saying any of these are perfect solutions, but would at least remedy the main desires of players looking for offspec/transmog gear.
Overall I'm happy with the new lfr loot system, and I'm hopeful that the game awards loot to everyone above say 80 on a /roll 100 so that there will be no incentive to stack the raid with 20 or 21 people who've already used their loot lockout for the week just so the other 4-5 people in the raid are guaranteed something.

I love the idea of the bonus roll tokens, even more so that they're going to be usable in normal and heroic so I can get extra chances at loot we've only seen 2 times since the start of 4.3...curse you legplates of the corrupted protector!

And since we roll to win or loose, not on boss drops, I think it will smooth out everyone's odds at loot. When I see the lfr blackhorn shield I have a 50/50 shot at it if my co-tank is also a block tank, 100% if it's a bear or dk, but I've only seen the darn thing once or twice, in MoP I feel like my chances to see it are much better since on average I'd "win" loot on average every 5th week. Of course, on average doesn't mean much...with 17 yor'sahj kills i should have seen 5 protector legs on average, but again with the bonus roll token i can fight the odds.

My only small complaint would be non-enchanters just get the vendor price of an item, which now would be 20g or something like that, I'd like the option to choose between the piece of gear, assuming the system decides I win gear, and a shard, or maybe gold.
Haven't read the full 10 pages, but how do you pass?

Several times now there's only been one boss I'm interested in (or I'm there solely for the completion reward)... It seems this new system doesn't give me an option to pass.

I mean, how is it beneficial that I get an item from a boss that has nothing for me when it can be better utilised by another player?

It seems like the new loot system isn't about making the loot system better, or involving fairness at any level, but reducing the QQ? Is that such a smart thing to be doing?


Because there's no reason to pass. If you sat around a table with 25 people, each with a slot machine in front of them, and you were all given the authority to roll your slot machines once, why would you "pass"? Whether or not you win on your slot machine isn't tied to anyone else or going to improve anyone else's odds. Whether or not you win or lose isn't impacted by whether someone else wins or loses.
03/27/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Nekronom
Lets say I've been grinding this one boss for weeks, and have every drop I could possiby obtain from his loot table. Under the proposed loot system, this boss will still continue to pass me loot I dont need and taking a winning roll from another raider who really could use the loot. While its great that this loot system eliminates politics, it also eliminates conscience to the detriment of everyone else in the group.


Except if you read the article, you winning loot does not impact the odds of everyone else. There is no "taking a winning roll", as all rolls are individual.

For example, Blizzard might put a background check in place to the effect of "Anyone who rolls higher than 75 wins loot". If you roll a 90 and win an item that isn't going to impact the probability of anyone else in the raid rolling over 75. The chance is independent of each other--which Blizzard has reiterated numerous times already.
Loot System
I think the new loot rules are a good idea for LFR. It stops people from needlessly rolling on behalf of a friend and makes the odds at winning a fair chance.

Valor Changes
This one I'm not so sure about... You can upgrade an item? At what cost to our time spent in game? Would you "buy" a new item and then have to gem and enchant it again?

Also, I think there should be another purpose for valor other then the upgrade of items. By that I mean: Leave some utility items with the vendor, but make them a step between heroic 5-man and entry-level raiding. That way if we don't want to, or have no need to, upgrade our items then we can spend the points in some other way. EIther utility items or something that makes our game time more enjoyable. That's why we play right?

Last point...

"Valor Points" doesn't sound like something you cant give to someone in return for an item or service. In reality it all means the same thing. However in terms of realism when your out and about in the real world, you'd go down the street and give someone 5 cents for a lolly, not points.

:)
Your chance of winning will have nothing to do with whether other people win or not.


Wasn't criticizing the system, I was simply saying it would have been a really easy way for them to explain it (assuming I'm interpretting it correctly). If this (everyone or only those that roll above an 80 get loot) is the way it's going to work, I can't wait to be in a group where nobody gets anything from the boss.

I also think Blizz needs to be really careful here because (as I mentioned above) as "time goes on" the odds of getting the piece of gear you need now goes up as everyone else gears up (some/a lot of people will pass on that particular item because they already have it). In their proposed system, the odds remain the same over the course of the expansion.
Area of Effect Looting

Yes, we are doing area looting. After killing a group of enemies, you may have a bunch of corpses lying around (perhaps because you went all Bladestorm on a bunch of hozen). If you loot one of the corpses, the loot window will include items from all of the nearby corpses for which you have loot rights. Some recent games have incorporated a similar feature, and it’s one of those things that players just want in their MMO these days. It’s already in and it works fine.


Can we get this in a minor patch instead of waiting for the Xpac lol
Changing the VP system is going to hurt a lot of your casuals. A LOT OF THEM! Is the VP system broken now? I don't think so. For people who do not want to raid, why shouldn't they get an option at getting decently geared? Really curious why Blizzard wants to cater to the raiders...
It looks like there is a set number or percent on your loot roll. Example: If x=70 then whomever rolls a 70 or higher will get some loot. If it just so happens the whole raid rolls a 70 or better, everyone wins a loot peace.

To me it's like gambling against the house, it's you vers's the dealer and not the other players.
Qasn't criticizing the system, I was simply saying it would have been a really easy way for them to explain it (assuming I'm interpretting it correctly). If this (everyone or only those that roll above an 80 get loot) is the way it's going to work, I can't wait to be in a group where nobody gets anything from the boss.


If Blizzard is smart they'll just add a line of logic to the code. "If number of winners is less than X, re-roll the whole raid". It could be instant until a certain minimum number is reached.

I also think Blizz needs to be really careful here because (as I mentioned above) as "time goes on" the odds of getting the piece of gear you need now go up as everyone else gears up (some/a lot of people will pass on that particular item because they already have it). In their proposed system, the odds remain the same over the course of the expansion.


I would agree if most people were passing on gear they already have. Next time you're in LFR, inspect the people who are rolling on gear and see if they really need it. Then see if you can actually count anyone who could have rolled on it but didn't. And then look at how many people are rolling on items just as bargaining chips. I suspect the pros of the new system far outweigh the cons of the existing one.
Leave the valor system alone please...or I too may be cancelling my subscription at the end of my 1 year.
this is what I could understand from the new loot system:

Lets say we kill Hagara in LFR and she drops 4 tokens. For example's sake: lets make all 4 tokens to be chest tokens. That is the loot that dropped.

Now comes the roll and 15 out of 25 people win the personal roll. Then all 15 of those people will get the appropriate tokens. Is that what the blog means?

Because thats the only way I could make sense of not worrying about numbers and competing with other people part in the blog.

BTW, I love the new valor change. ITS PERFECT. Having valor points provide gear gave the impression to grind and kinda felt forced to grind those heroics until we were blue in the face. So this change was pretty good as you won't really feel too forced to grind for personal progression.
The biggest problem I see with this system is trying to gear up alts or running less geared people through raids to gear them faster. Also, what if I'm a DPS that wants a shot at tank gear? In the past, if the tank doesn't need the gear they can pass and let the potential tanks who are DPSing get a shot. If I understood the system correctly, I would only get a shot a tank gear if I tanked.

I like the idea of the extra roll tokens and these problems could be solved by expanding on the idea of that system. I'm not sure how the independent roll works in where it is truly independent and as few as 0 or as many as 25 people can get gear off a killed boss. Or if it rolls for ever raider then hands out 5 pieces to the top 5 rolls then rolls again to determine what piece you get out of the loot pool that is appropriate for your class and spec.

For the sake of the argument lets say that is the later and 5 people get loot. So, instead of having a pass option have a "Loot Satchel" option that randomly gives you some gold, a potion, or some profession mats. Basically just like the extra roll system, but no chance at epics or higher value items. If 10 people pick that option, which they would if they truly don't need anything, then the 5 items would go to 5 of the 15 instead of 5 of the 25.

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