Dev Watercooler – MoP Looting Explained

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03/27/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Hoffdruid
Jim Bob is a warrior.

Greg is obviously trolling us. You can't have spaces on your character name.

No, he is just hinting at the biggest secret in Mists the elusive space in names...haha.

Sounds. good can't wait to get my beta invite to try it all out.
The Elder tokens can be used to purchase head enchants, some nice purple items, and the kind of gear you’ve come to expect from factions.

I wonder how this will affect (or be affected by) faction reputation grinds, since traditionally those items are only purchasable (with gold) once you've reached exalted with a particular faction.
This is a tough one for me. I raid with a guild on my server as a guest, and as a guest if a piece of gear drops that is main spec for someone else, I dont even think about it. I let the people in the guild gear up and I do my thing on the side to try and still be useful to them. Once their main raiders no longer need that item, THEN I take it.

As it stands at this moment, if I run with them, I could in a way be taking someone elses loot.
I mean it would be mine in Blizz's eyes because I was there, I did my part, and got a higher roll. But to me I just filled a spot for them and got something I wasn't after. I think a 'pass' option would be good for people like me, who are after the experience not the shiny's.

I'm guessing that at least part of the reason for this change (or at least a side benefit in Blizzard's eyes) is that this new looting system prevents top guilds from gaming the LFR raids to get fully geared in LFR loot very quickly (particularly new tier sets). As it stand now, you can run several raids each week with a few mains that won't compete for gear and fill the rest of the groups with alts or mains that have already done "their" raid. When loot drops, it goes to the mains, giving them a drastically increased chance at whatever they are after. Under the new system this won't work anymore which means you don't have any better chance at getting loot in an engineered guild LFR run as you do if you just queue by yourself.

Unfortunately, this also means that people who weren't really trying to game the system but were just trying to "be nice" and pass loot to somebody who needed it more (trying to gear up somebody's alt to fill a spot in your raid roster, or as a guest in another guilds LFR group) can't do that anymore.

Because both types of people are basically doing the same things, Blizzard really can't select based on a player's intentions, so in the long run they are probably better off preventing exploits than allowing people to be nice and pass loot around if somebody else could use it more. I think the idea is that normal/heroic still lets you distribute loot how you want, so it should be mostly fine anyway.
So is it hypothetically possible for a boss to drop no loot then?

EDIT: To be more clear, I mean, will a boss only give items to exactly 4 people, or will that change where sometimes, nobody will get anything and other times, everyone will get something?
I have one suggestion for this system:

Don't make looting automatic. It all sounds perfect and amazing, but it feels like a disconnect when you just receive it with no feedback. I think the best way to ensure feedback is have everyone loot the boss like any other mob. It'll be hard for many to get used to, but I think worth it.
Regarding the new LFR method of "The game says 'Here, take this!'"Right now, we can enchant a weapon/armor for someone in the trade window. This allows an enchanter to toss an enchant on a soulbound item without needing to trade a scroll to the other person.

Can we extend this function to include disenchanting Soulbound items in the trade window as well?

This allows people who pick up their 4th or 5th Helmet in raid finder to disenchant the items for materials, which sell for far more than the vendor value of the item by itself.Along the same lines, if you modify how enchant in trade window works, could you make it possible to enchant in the trade window using the materials which are also in the trade window? Currently if I enchant an item for someone, they have to give me their materials, then trust that I will enchant their item. This makes the enchanting-in-window somewhat pointless, as for a mere 12 copper more I could have just traded a scroll, and the stranger still has to trust me not to run off with his materials after the initial trade.
Sounds mostly good, but I've a question or two.

1) I had figured that there would be a percentage of people that would win per boss (likely four, as LFR bosses drop four items). However, your statement that you don't want the size of the group to diminish or enhance the chance of winning implies that it won't be anything like "top 4 secret rolls get loot" but rather there'll be some threshold and anyone that passes that will get loot -- could be 0, could be 25 (though statistically very, very, very unlikely). Is that so?

2) Will LFR operate like LFD and forbid queueing for lower-level raids?

3) Will Justice Points and the trend of putting back-level gear up for purchase remain in light of the change in Valor Points? I really like to complete old tier sets and, if LFR does not allow queueing of lower-level raids, this could be difficult if it is not available on the vendor.

Really looking forward to see how this all shakes out. It's kind of funny because it isn't much different than how I do LFR today. I roll and then I choose not to see the result -- if I hear a ding! in my backpack then great, if not, oh well.
Positive feedback incoming! I really quite like the system for LFR loot. I like that there's no way for another player to reduce your chances at acquiring something. I also like that you have a way to give yourself a second chance on a boss kill for that piece you're craving, but only if you work for it.

A bit of criticism though. While I love the idea of boosting my current gear using Valour points, I think I like it most because after awhile I simply have no use for them. Sure, I can pick up what few BoE items are available and try and sell them or give them to guild alts. At the end of the day I don't feel like these points I worked hard to get matter much after awhile. Also, I'm not so sure that this system alone will be quite enough to make up for the amount of gear I can't acquire based on luck. I feel like a major way I acquired gear for raiding in Cataclysm is now completely gone. Will there be more available from factions? Will professions have more to offer as we continue? Do you intend the 'Lucky Charm' to basically replace this method? Valour is also a great source of offspec gear when one wishes not to acquire it through the normal grindy means.

I want this gap filled because I like upgrading my items, but I don't want to feel like I'll reach a climax early or be constantly grinding for that one specific piece. Even if the valour gear isn't the best for that tier, at least its something I can grab while working on my own personal best-in-slot-list.

Would not a better system combine both this new 'upgrade' feature and the current set up used for Dragon Soul? Keep the tier out of there, but provide something to spend these points on so that I can feel like I'm upgrading my items rather than just seeing a few stats get boosted. I could then upgrade my gear's iLevel once I've purchased all I want from the valour selection, or continue to spend it on offspec gear instead.
I have 2 questions based on the blog post.

1) Will we have the option to disenchant a piece of loot if an enchanter is in the group? Or are the only options keep or vendor?

2) Will there be a set number of players in a group that receive loot, or at least a minimum and maximum number of players that will receive loot? It seems like, although rare, without parameters in place, it would be possible for every single person in the group to get something, or on the other hand, also possible for nobody to receive loot.Feedback: I love the idea of changing the way Valor points work. I was never real crazy about being able to buy gear instead of killing a boss until what you want drops. Also, being able to buy 397 loot with currency gained from running dungeons that drop 378 loot seems a bit bizarre as well.

I've always enjoyed running dungeons, but the current Valor system really makes me feel like I have to run them in order to get gear. Being able to run them weekly instead of daily greatly improved my feelings on it, but all in all, I feel like Valor points have, ironically, taken away from my dungeoneering experience rather than adding to it.
Will loot drops be more...varied/spread out than they were in Cataclysm?

This would be nice. I used VP to fill in gear slots for items that simply haven't dropped. For example, I've killed Yor'sahj 22 times and haven't seen my boots drop once. It's RNG, sure, but I'd still be wearing my FL boots had VP boots not been available. If bosses shared more loot, then that 23rd kill wouldn't feel nearly so annoying as I'm sure it will tonight.
Something the water cooler didn't explain:

How are the rolls for a chance to win loot done? I assume there are not a set number of winners. In fact, it seems pretty clear that there's not. But is there a minimum number of winners? A maximum? Does group size have any impact on an individual player's odds of winning?

Is it a set roll? I assume each player does a hidden role (1-100, for example). If the value to win loot is a set number (perhaps 70), such that anyone rolling a value over that wins *something* off of the boss, then the extremes of "everyone wins something" (everyone rolls over 70) or "no one wins anything" (everyone rolls under 70) are possible, right? Is that how the system works? In this case, the odds of winning anything are completely independent of group size. But you'd also have bitter situations where people would wail, "Why did this boss only drop 1 item with 25 people in the raid!???? *rageface*"

Is the roll somehow weighed? Are there a minimum number of people that can win and/or a maximum number? Let's say everyone rolls 23 to 54 on one boss, and everyone rolls 78 to 100 on another. Is the value to win going to be different in each case (perhaps 38 in the first and 89 in the second) to insure winners in each? In this case, the number of people you bring has an impact on your odds of winning loot (although possibly not a significant impact overall), but then you'd also be sure the boss wasn't completely stingy with his loot and things would feel a little less unpredictable.
I have one suggestion for this system:

Don't make looting automatic. It all sounds perfect and amazing, but it feels like a disconnect when you just receive it with no feedback. I think the best way to ensure feedback is have everyone loot the boss like any other mob. It'll be hard for many to get used to, but I think worth it.

It would be cool if, as part of the boss death animation, we see the loot fly from the boss's corpse into the winning players' hands.
03/27/2012 01:56 PMPosted by Vulgrym
Why does Valor need to exist in any form?

To give you some reward when the loot you want doesn't drop.

Also, it's a good policy to encourage raiders to keep doing heroic dungeons. A bigger pool of players shortens queue times. And having experienced players in there makes the runs smoother. As time goes on, you get more and more of the weaker players in there, so having raiders counteracts that.
Regarding the Valor changes, I currently enjoy using my excess honor and valor to purchase enchanting mats and BOE gear for sale in trade or the AH. This nice income stream allows me to purchase raiding materials and fun stuff like companions.

I rather earn my gold by experiencing content rather than grinding mats or crafting. Please don't limit valor to upgrading gear only.
03/27/2012 02:02 PMPosted by Haayt
Can we extend this function to include disenchanting Soulbound items in the trade window as well?

As a 525 Enchanter I'd love to see this. It is frustrating that I can't disenchant soulbound items for people outside of them being able to select the disenchant button. I can understand if you don't want this to be doable in LFR (as it would call attention to the fact that you won something, and possibly cause drama), but once the winner is outside of LFR it'd be great if they could seek out a friendly Enchanter.
Also, what about Justice gear? Can we still at least fill in gaps from the previous tier that we may never have acquired by drops?
03/27/2012 01:52 PMPosted by Prospirit
I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere else that each boss will only be handing out 4 pieces of gear, and if someone rolls high but has no spec-appropriate gear on that boss they will receive gold and will move down the list until 4 pieces of gear have been awarded

According to the blog:
For those looking for more detail, here's what's happening behind the scenes:

  • The boss dies.
  • Each player has a chance to win loot, independent of the other players.
  • For each player who wins loot, the game randomly assigns them a spec-appropriate item from that boss’s loot table. This subset contains only items that the game (meaning the designers in this case) thinks are appropriate for your class and current spec.
  • Notice that you aren’t rolling Need or Greed. You don’t have an option to Pass. The game just says “Take this.”
  • You can’t trade this item, or that would defeat the purpose of removing the social pressure on groups of strangers. If you don’t want the item, you are free to vendor, delete, or disenchant it.

I don't see anything about a 4-item limit. As far as I can tell the boss gives loot to anyone who wins.
There still seems to be some confusion, but this is my take on the MoP looting rules. When I farm for transmog gear, I solo a certain heroic boss every day until I get the piece I want. I go in and down a boss, certain gear drops. It could take a month to get the one piece of gear I want. Now imagine that instead of that boss dropping two items every time and I have to get lucky to get the item I want, he instead drops nothing or 1 item. I have a good chance he'll drop nothing, and a small chance he'll drop something. However, that one thing will be one of two or three items that I want. Now add the element of "24 other people are doing the same thing at the same time to the same boss". Nothing really changes loot-wise, just that on that same boss 24 other people are doing the same thing you are. Soloing a boss for loot... with 24 other people.
03/27/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Ronduwil
I don't see anything about a 4-item limit. As far as I can tell the boss gives loot to anyone who wins.

Well, almost. If the boss has no appropriate gear in its loot table for the person then I imagine they'll win gold. However, I'm not sure there is a single boss that has a gap wide enough in what it drops that an entire class would fall through. Also the bonus roll is a chance to win loot, but more likely gold, shards, etc.
03/27/2012 01:32 PMPosted by Syreienna
If the game itself randomly selects x amount of players to receive loot, and 1 (or more) players are just using the Raid Finder for Valor Points, wouldn't that be unfair to the players who do need loot? Or is it set up that each individual player has a % chance of winning separate from the other raid members?

Read the post again. That's not how it works. The game has a number that each player has to beat to win loot. Every player individually rolls against the number. If 25 people beat the number 25 people win loot. If no one beats the number no one wins loot. If you pass the next guy is still going to have to beat the same number to win so you're not doing anyone any good. The idea is to remove pressure to pass on loot from the players who are carrying everyone else through the fight. Those players deserve a reward as much as the next guy, arguably more so.

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