Lock Meta tank: complete info consolidation

Warlock
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As I understand it, the problem with Feral druids was that they shared too much of the same talents and gear so that it was not only possible but reasonable for a Feral tank to switch to cat form and do almost full dps, and for a Feral dps to switch to bear and be an almost as good tank. The problem was that the margin of difference was much too small and not at all combated well enough by talents, gearing requirements (since they shared most of the same gear) or gemming/enchanting.

Therefor, it is largely assumed among those of us appealing for Warlock Tanks, that the best choice for viability is to make it mutually exclusive with the DPS spec in some major way. This can be done by making it a separate specialization, completely replacing the DPS demo tree, returning the glyph to be exclusionary of dps, or having a large difference in gearing requirements (I don't think Spirit gear is going to cut it.).

I am personally of the opinion that two dps specs is plenty (especially as they already have widely differing specialties and styles) and that making Demo a full tanking specialization would be ideal. However, if that were the case, Blizzard should also make moves to follow suit with at least one other pure class to balance the scales (between healer and tank classes) and to begin to do away with the concept of pure dps (as they have done away with the Hybrid tax, there is no benefit to playing such a class other then style(I don't hold to the argument that you will be forced to tank).).

What I feel is more likely to happen, is that the glyph remains as an emergency tank for this expansion, balanced by lacking avoidance, as we begin to see the groundwork laid for one of three scenarios: Either all classes get a fourth specialization (the most likely) which will introduce a few more combat styles or options where appropriate; Glyphs that change combat roles become more mainstream, thus allowing full role shifts rather then sub par role shifts; or Blizz will just say at some point that they have no intention of ever doing this and shut down the project (hopefully leaving the glyph so I can still pretend to tank in the privacy of solo content), but as long as that hasn't happened yet, I will remain patiently optimistic.
As I understand it, the problem with Feral druids was that they shared too much of the same talents and gear so that it was not only possible but reasonable for a Feral tank to switch to cat form and do almost full dps, and for a Feral dps to switch to bear and be an almost as good tank. The problem was that the margin of difference was much too small and not at all combated well enough by talents, gearing requirements (since they shared most of the same gear) or gemming/enchanting.

Therefor, it is largely assumed among those of us appealing for Warlock Tanks, that the best choice for viability is to make it mutually exclusive with the DPS spec in some major way. This can be done by making it a separate specialization, completely replacing the DPS demo tree, returning the glyph to be exclusionary of dps, or having a large difference in gearing requirements (I don't think Spirit gear is going to cut it.).

I am personally of the opinion that two dps specs is plenty (especially as they already have widely differing specialties and styles) and that making Demo a full tanking specialization would be ideal. However, if that were the case, Blizzard should also make moves to follow suit with at least one other pure class to balance the scales (between healer and tank classes) and to begin to do away with the concept of pure dps (as they have done away with the Hybrid tax, there is no benefit to playing such a class other then style(I don't hold to the argument that you will be forced to tank).).

What I feel is more likely to happen, is that the glyph remains as an emergency tank for this expansion, balanced by lacking avoidance, as we begin to see the groundwork laid for one of three scenarios: Either all classes get a fourth specialization (the most likely) which will introduce a few more combat styles or options where appropriate; Glyphs that change combat roles become more mainstream, thus allowing full role shifts rather then sub par role shifts; or Blizz will just say at some point that they have no intention of ever doing this and shut down the project (hopefully leaving the glyph so I can still pretend to tank in the privacy of solo content), but as long as that hasn't happened yet, I will remain patiently optimistic.


I agree with you on just about everything. However I don't agree in the removal of pures. I don't think that "finding" a way to make a new roll to a class is a good idea, its too forced. With the warlock tank concept it is something that has evolved over 7 years of game play and feels very natural. Forcing such a change on a class out of the blue will feel like it was forced and won't feel natural if it went live. Even a Rouge evasion tank, or a mage bubble tank or a hunter naturist would feel out of place at the head of a raid but the warlock has been doing it for years which is why it feels so right.
You make a valid point, but I don't think it would be as forced as you think. The lore can be used to serve your game mechanics just as game mechanics should serve lore.

Example: The Arcane Mage. What about a book worm suggests a dps role? The arcane tree (conceptually, in my opinion) is about knowledge, support, and the arcane and magical underpinnings of the very nature of reality. Now, that is currently implemented in the mana management dps style, but as I see it, another way to interpret it would be to add arcane restabalization (In a kinda titanesque mesh of Arcane and Light based magic) supplemented by Shields and time manipulation to make a solid healing spec. All of this can be sited from the game, and even can be built toward. Mages can use their accumulated knowledge of the fundamental functionality of the universe to bend time and space to their wims. A little repair work for their allies should be a minor issue.

My point is: Don't limit your mind by want currently exists in game. Azeroth is a big world with lots of stuff in it. Options include, but are not limited too: Copious amounts of Alcohol and/or Ego has been known to make leather wearers tank, do you think the Burning Legion has medics?, could the Light be used more directly offensively (a Smite Dps priest build)?, what kind of hunter is Rexxar?, what about an archer or gunner that isn't a nature loving hippy? Shamans could use Earth magic to tank, and rogues or hunters could use Alchemy to heal. I don't see any of these as less (or more, for that matter) reasonable then a battle chicken that shoots lazers and summons exploding mushrooms.

Two final points:

Please, for the love of fel, please do not bring up methods of tanking that would be completely unbalancable. Rogues are much better off with a Musketeer style swashbuckling swordmaster, then they would be with an "Evasion tank" that wouldn't be viable for all the opposite reasons that we currently suffer from. You do them a disservice, and you betray your ignorance.

And, warlocks do not fit at the head of a raid. We are egocentric loners who only cooperate with others when there are larger issues at play. However, when we are there, expect us to utilize our entire toolset of Demonic magics to get the job done. We draw the ire of our foes by inflicting them pain and being egregiously obvious about it, and we survive their blows by borrowing power from the Twisting Nether (Yes, I am talking about BC and Wrath iterations of Warlock tanking). However, that is the same argument that was made both for and against Death Knight tanks. It is invalid. A tank only needs to be Brave/Egotistical/Stupid/Sadistic enough to stand there and take it so that the softies don't have to. Your argument does not apply to Warlocks, and it is certainly not a prohibiter of any other form of tanking.


Two final points:

Please, for the love of fel, please do not bring up methods of tanking that would be completely unbalancable. Rogues are much better off with a Musketeer style swashbuckling swordmaster, then they would be with an "Evasion tank" that wouldn't be viable for all the opposite reasons that we currently suffer from. You do them a disservice, and you betray your ignorance.

And, warlocks do not fit at the head of a raid. We are egocentric loners who only cooperate with others when there are larger issues at play. However, when we are there, expect us to utilize our entire toolset of Demonic magics to get the job done. We draw the ire of our foes by inflicting them pain and being egregiously obvious about it, and we survive their blows by borrowing power from the Twisting Nether (Yes, I am talking about BC and Wrath iterations of Warlock tanking). However, that is the same argument that was made both for and against Death Knight tanks. It is invalid. A tank only needs to be Brave/Egotistical/Stupid/Sadistic enough to stand there and take it so that the softies don't have to. Your argument does not apply to Warlocks, and it is certainly not a prohibiter of any other form of tanking.


Let me clarify for a sec what I meant, I don't believe they should remove pures, for the sake of removing pures.

For the 1st point, I was tossing out generic ideas, not suggestions of future rolls. It is true though that rouges are the class I know least of, its the only class I have below 70.

As for the 2nd of the two, I disagree about being at the head of a raid, from a RP/lore stand point on my own char at least, I don't see warlocks just 'dabbling' in demonic magic and energies. There would be a reason to do it and domination over demons would only be a step towards domination of things other than demons. Ruling all of Azeroth would intrigue my lock greatly and the group of raiders I've 'temporarily' allied myself with and currently lead don't need to know my goal with the raid isn't the preservation of the peaceful simplistic life Azeroth would love to know, I'm merely eliminating competitors.

There are many ways and reason to look at "Why".
True that, there are. I am merely attempting to keep the conversation within realistic (in my opinion, and supported by my experience) bounds so that it will be better considered by those that read it.

And your point on pures is seen, I just respectfully disagree.
04/30/2012 11:01 PMPosted by Orloth
(I don't think Spirit gear is going to cut it.).


I must disagree with this. Spirit Gear CAN cut it- If Spirit rating was converted into Dodge or Parry rating, then the best pieces of gear would be Spirit/Mastery, with all other stats reforged into either Spirit or Dodge. Since only 3 specs can use Spirit cloth gear, while 7 use Hit cloth gear, I would think that having it to where 4 specs prefer Spirit cloth gear with 7 still using Hit cloth gear would be best.

Instead of removing Demo dps, since its enjoyed by a decent % of the Warlock population, adding a 4th spec, akin to what happened with Feral and Guardian, would be best: Blizz has shown that they are not adverse to having 4 specs.


One of the common misconceptions is that bliz said no and left it at that. They said it wasn't their initial intention. They went on to say this here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253968049?page=2#25

"We appreciate all the feedback and passion on this topic. We expected this glyph would serve a pretty niche community and were surprised at how many players were excited about it. We are still in beta and are still very much experimenting with what kind of gamplay we can deliver in glyphs."


That still doesn't seem to be saying that locks get to be tanks IMO. It is more like letting a lock have some tank fun for solo or to maybe save a group for a sec if the tank dies. Much like what a hunter could do. But I don't see them letting locks queue up as tanks at all.


What I feel is more likely to happen, is that the glyph remains as an emergency tank for this expansion, balanced by lacking avoidance, as we begin to see the groundwork laid for one of three scenarios: Either all classes get a fourth specialization (the most likely) which will introduce a few more combat styles or options where appropriate; Glyphs that change combat roles become more mainstream, thus allowing full role shifts rather then sub par role shifts; or Blizz will just say at some point that they have no intention of ever doing this and shut down the project (hopefully leaving the glyph so I can still pretend to tank in the privacy of solo content), but as long as that hasn't happened yet, I will remain patiently optimistic.


I agree. I do think 4 specs would be fun idea. It would surely be interesting and perhaps open up some more options within the classes we love. But I don't see them doing it anytime soon. Perhaps half way through MoP they will throw that in with a huge patch or in the next expansion. But just giving it to us? I doubt it. I mean there is also alot of interest in shaman tanking too.

I think the glyph will be fun for solo and when I am overgeared and clearing out olderstuff or messing around with friends.
It's worth remarking, although i am not sure what it means, that in the last two or three iterations of the Beta the Dark Apotheosis mechanics have not really changed in any way that makes them incapable of tanking dungeons.

Similarly Destruction has undergone the most revisions in the last couple of iterations (all toward making them more playable and viable) so it may be that the dev felt Destro needed the most change or warlock revision allocated to a schedule and Destro was the first spec scheduled to be fixed.

Time will tell.
05/01/2012 02:08 AMPosted by Orloth
And, warlocks do not fit at the head of a raid. We are egocentric loners who only cooperate with others when there are larger issues at play. However, when we are there, expect us to utilize our entire toolset of Demonic magics to get the job done. We draw the ire of our foes by inflicting them pain and being egregiously obvious about it, and we survive their blows by borrowing power from the Twisting Nether (Yes, I am talking about BC and Wrath iterations of Warlock tanking). However, that is the same argument that was made both for and against Death Knight tanks. It is invalid. A tank only needs to be Brave/Egotistical/Stupid/Sadistic enough to stand there and take it so that the softies don't have to. Your argument does not apply to Warlocks, and it is certainly not a prohibiter of any other form of tanking.


Bravery and stupidity are often interchangable. The largest risk taker of all of the classes are easily the warlock. We put our well being on the line to get as much demonic power we can. We bring deadly monster into the world only to bend them to our will. It used to be more obvious when we had a spell prepared to bring a raid boss that could easily kill anything in its path. We will do anything it takes to bring our foes to their knees. I cant really prove any sort of egotistical traits, but it has shown that quite a few lock npcs have fun showin off what they got.

Any charactar traits of a druid or death knight would most likely belong to the warlock. A warlock is pretty much a druid, but quite a bit more of a risk taker, and a weaker moral code. A warlock is pretty much like a death knight, only the warlock is consciously aware of the sacrifices he makes for his power. Being sadistic would not drive you to tank, it would drive you to dps. Your thinking of masochistic, which I have never seen in any player charactar class at all. The warlocks have quite a tanking personality so what would stop them from trying to become unbreakable?
Uh...*stamp of approval*
Give warlocks the power to tank?
NAH LETS MAKE POKEMAN BATTLES FOR VANITY PETS! UHUEHUEHUE!
I vote yes
Well blizzard has let this stay in bete to long now alot of peaple love the play style of demo tank. If its scrapped the forum will rage if it stays the forum will rage. I do like demo tanks ,but I think blizzard may have dug a hole here.
More tanks the better! I'm for it! More classes that can tank = easier grouping and fun times to be had!
05/08/2012 11:38 PMPosted by Omelete
Well blizzard has let this stay in bete to long now alot of peaple love the play style of demo tank. If its scrapped the forum will rage if it stays the forum will rage. I do like demo tanks ,but I think blizzard may have dug a hole here.


I'm not sure that there are to many people who actually oppose the notion of warlock tanking. At least those who frequent the forums have expressed the desire for an adaptation in the form of a seperate spec or the current glyph. The only concern I've seen so far is the fear of losing demonology as a dps spec.
That, and the occasional, "Pures are pures because they are pures" argument and the "if I wanted to tank, I would roll a tank class" argument. But I have yet to find any strong reasoning in support of either of those.
This is starting to get as annoying as the old "Holy form" in the priest forms.
05/10/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Voldemort
This is starting to get as annoying as the old "Holy form" in the priest forms.


And blizz "listened" and gave us something 10 fold more fun and interesting than "Holy form".
Chakra has its weak points, but man oh man is it a fun mechanic.

Hopefully they do the same sort of "listening" with my Mini illidan friends and you guys get a sort of toggle-able Demo form that can act as a tank AND a melee caster. It seems like that is what the majority is really pining for... 'cause it doesn't look like DA is cutting it just yet.
05/10/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Pleasurizer
This is starting to get as annoying as the old "Holy form" in the priest forms.


And blizz "listened" and gave us something 10 fold more fun and interesting than "Holy form".
Chakra has its weak points, but man oh man is it a fun mechanic.

Hopefully they do the same sort of "listening" with my Mini illidan friends and you guys get a sort of toggle-able Demo form that can act as a tank AND a melee caster. It seems like that is what the majority is really pining for... 'cause it doesn't look like DA is cutting it just yet.


Define majority? From what i'm seeing on the forums, real friends, and random locks in the game that its around 50/50
There are strong supporters on both sides of the fence, but all the data I've seen (from several different MMO champion polls) suggests it's closer to 60/40 in favor of tanks (If you drop the indifferents who are usually around 5-10%). Higher if people get to keep Demo Dps in the process (I don't blame them, Demo Dps is finally getting its own style as a Fel Conjurer and is looking pretty good.).

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