Blizz: Only Gameplay, orcs, and humans matter

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The fact is, there is a war going on, but the Alliance seems mostly absent from it.

The way it has been written, the leaders all have priorities over the war.

That has been the way since vanilla. The horde v alliance thing has never taken centre stage for the alliance, but it has for the horde in many quests and zones. Sylvanas takes on a huge role in pushing into Gilneas and interacting with undead characters. Why doesnt anyone else?

Why doesnt Varian help westfall? Why doesnt Varian help redridge? Why.... instead its all these other characters who are zone specific and dont carry on at all (Except for the novelty rambo one).

The fact is there is no connection at all with the faction or the leaders. There is no... continuity. There are all these half battles with no resolution that serve as excuses to keep leaders away from things that matter.

Why didnt the Blood elves help the Undead in taking plague lands? Why leave them out? Why not have something to push them forward, instead they are another forgotten race, tbc was their only chance.

Why not have... anything happen?

The main problem I feel is that as Alliance you feel like nothing you do matters, its all treading water.

Why dont gnomes do anything other than make air ships and submarines (That horde seem to have as much if not more interaction with) why not have a Gnome hero who leads an army? Why not have.... etc...

The problem with wow is fundamentally, you have the "BIG" threat, non faction specific, and the 'threat' of the other faction, which doesnt really seem to matter at all. In the end what happens to Garrosh? he becomes a BIG threat because he goes insane or whatever. You seem inable to make things 'happen' without 'insane, corrupt.. etc..' happening to people.

Why not turn Garrosh into a tragic character that simply tries too hard and fails? Someone who turns the horde into a warmachine that simply breaks? That he simply fails as a general and leader?

The only reason people want Thrall back, is because outside of Saurfang, he is the only character the Orcs have.

You are too limited in your imagination, too limited in your scope, too limited in your characters. Things are shoved onto the shoulders of single characters when they should be spread over several.

Its hard to be specific when there are so many problems going on at the same time. Its like you have 'too much' going on while at the same time focusing on far too little.

Every faction should be involved in things that matter to them (Faction war matters to all factions)

Horde is a warlord dictatorship, Garrosh leads, but there is tension between the factions. Sylvanas, Vol'jin, Baine. But where are the Blood elves? Goblins have more going on with the faction than them and they just entered.

And the alliance on the other hand? It is a multi leader partnership (An Alliance funnily enough) excpet everything is about one leader. Where is the Gnome leader? Where are the dwarves? Where is Genn? Where is.... etc... its all this side show of.... well nothing at all.

The Alliance doesnt want one leader, it just wants leadership, from all factions, because that is what an Alliance is. Instead of trying to focus on that, the leadership of the faction, you focus on one person, who was shoe horned into the game through comics... yay?

Tyrande doesnt seem to care that Horde is taking Ashenvale. Malfurion is awake, but he may as well go back to sleep for all the good he is doing the NE. Gnomish leadership is stuck in new tinkertown giving starter quests to maintain a status quo. Velen is standing (Not even sitting! he is so old!) in exodar doing nothing at all outside of books which 99% of the userbase does not read. Genn is standing next to Varian, not even a unique model like his kick !@# worgen model in the official artwork, he isnt leading the war in the north to retake his freaking home after the undead killed his SON, took over southshore, plaguelands and what not, not even aiding the worgen resisetence. Dwarves are doing nothing, a few quests to show how dangerous the dark irons are. Did we get to see what happened to Varians son? The recoming of the dark irons into the dwarvish fold? No, it just happens, deal with it.

Where is the pride? Well, you dont give us any. Dont wonder why the Alliance doesnt feel pride for its faction, wonder why they would.

Destroy theramore, destroy a thousand theramores, delete stormwind if you want, but only if you can give us something to 'feel' something to get passionate about. (hint: just like horde couldnt get behind Garrosh, Alliance cannot get behind badly written characters, and Varian is one of those)


Exactly, exactly! Love this post too. Sometimes I feel the only alliance story there is to talk about is the lack of decent storytelling and in-game development they get. It just doesn't really exist in the game, and with the revamped 1-60 zones you just don't feel like you are doing anything or part of something bigger especially with the zones that feel so isolated and pointless for the alliance.
One thing that full quote does seem to suggest, however, makes me very sad. That the underlying point of Warcraft will ALWAYS be about the Orcs and Humans beating each others brains out; Therefore, in game terms, PVP is the primary purpose of WoW.

I love the PVE, I like that it gives an opportunity to RP. I hate PVP so much that I would pay at least $5 more per month not to ever have to see it again. The most hopeful sign for me in WoW was seeing the Horde and Alliance cooperating actively in the Argent Crusade.

But I've seen many things happen in my time playing WoW that suggest to me that PVP gets primary attention. This just confirms it.
I agree, the pvp is there because the players and developers initially wanted it, but from story, and what actually happens in game, its pretty much until the end of wotlk that you actually get any sense that they are now writing for some pvp. I think this is sad because I love pvp and horde v alliance. But it does feel like alot of the time it just doesnt belong in the game and taht they would be able to tell the story they want without 'factions' getting in the way. Its always felt like a hinderance to them I feel.

Just looks at the first intro cinematic, it is all about horde v alliance. Vanilla? Next to none of it from the Alliance questing especially.

TBC? Some shoe horned 'pvp' bits in some zones, thats about it It was about the big bad, just like Vanilla.

Wotlk? Arthas.

Cata? A dragon that wrecked some stuff, could eat parks, vomit cities out of existence, but gets pew pewed by Thrall.

Mop? Panda land all of a sudden, with a backdrop of some faction v faction stuff... which is like the worst time to create a new undiscovered continent but whatever.

Mop? Panda land all of a sudden, with a backdrop of some faction v faction stuff... which is like the worst time to create a new undiscovered continent but whatever.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/30/chris-metzen-on-mists-of-pandarias-story-and-why-the-players-are-the-real-villains/
Chris Metzen:
Pandaria isn’t all that much about the Pandaren. They’re a really cool new element, but they’re just an element. There’s so much more going on in that land and with this mythology coming full circle. It’s something I guess I rail against: people having the impression that it’s just about Pandaren, and we’re just going to be holding hands and skipping with them through five long levels. It’s not true. They definitely pepper throughout and have a cool storyline, but there’s so much more going on there than just them and their concerns.

Pandaren are the backdrop.
Right. How many raids or dungeons will be about Horde v Alliance in Pandaria? From what we have seen leaked, they are all Pandaria raids readling with Pandaria issues... Which is great. For pandas.

Horde v Alliance means more than a few quests here and there.
I need to start telling other story writers how to actually write their book. Or tell musicians that I've liked how to write their music, since I'm an expert.

...

Seventeen years worth of lore... It took (about) 17 years for them to resolve the Deathwing storyline. Now some of you are crying over a race/races not having a finished plot each expansion... seriously?

Humans and Orcs make up the majority of their factions and are thus at the the forefront of the canonical story. Subplots and secondary media aren't meant to diminish the original plot but to enhance it.

Most of what I have read so far in this thread are the points of view based on some of the most recent events. I challenge these people to take a look back at the history of this franchise and not just at WoW.

From a writers stance, if you resolve every story right away you are only backing yourself into a corner. You put pressure on yourself to always have to keep coming up with new material that will blow the pants off of readers each and every time. At least when you leave open-ended lines you can hear what the people are saying and put together an ending that fits nicely into the direction you want to go.

It took Tolkein a lifetime of notes and living in his own fantasy world to achieve posthumous fame. Don't tell me you think HE finished everything he wrote.

...

edit:
Quoted from above post:
"Pity that their writers are such talentless hacks."

Whoa, way to go simpleton. Call the guys making a few hundred thousand more than you do a year "talent-less hacks". You had better be the best at what you do to make such a bold proclamation. Do yourself a favor and think about what you are writing before you type it out and hit submit. It may save you from being libelous in the future and keep you out of court for a defamation lawsuit.


When you write a novel or series with multiple arcs leading to one primary arc, you make certain to cover the minor arcs every few chapters so as no to lose the reader's interest in each individual minor arc. This is a basic element of plot writing. When you add a scene that seems significant (Vol'jin's threat, Cairne's death, Greymane and worgen in general arriving in Darnassus) and ignore it for an entire book with no mention of a continuation in a future book (expansions, in this case), you leave your reader puzzled as to why that scene was present in the first place. If you cannot follow through on a minor arc within a reasonable amount of space (or time), then you move that arc to a better location in the plotline. To leave two entire races in the loop for two expansions, doing nothing to bring them into the present, is irresponsible as a writer.

As for Tolkein - the man had a rather busy life. Much of his work went unpublished not because he took forever to craft his stories, but because printing costs at the time were outrageous. For him, writing was a hobby in line with his career, not a career itself.

Oh, and if calling someone a talentless hack was libelous, we'd have very few literary critics.
04/13/2012 05:02 AMPosted by Gnomeopathy
Why is Jainas story being told in a book? Why was Varians? Why was... etc... Instead of making epic quests that related the player to these characters, we get next to nothing, we get a quest here or there, I mean how much do Alliance players see their leaders in questing to cap? Honestly, ive spent more time with Nesingwary than I have fighting for my faction.
Because Books are far better stroytelling mediums for really heavy stuff than MMOs ever will be in a thousand years.

Thrall's Questline was just pretty much everything in the book previous made into a quest, and more clumsily.
Right. How many raids or dungeons will be about Horde v Alliance in Pandaria? From what we have seen leaked, they are all Pandaria raids readling with Pandaria issues... Which is great. For pandas.

Horde v Alliance means more than a few quests here and there.
That's because the opening tier is suppised to be the Pandarian conflicts. The plan is supposed to be that the Horde and Alliance stuff follows after.That's the plan anyway...
04/13/2012 04:18 AMPosted by Bomdanil
You took what someone said and turned it around to mean something completely different in your own mind. A CM even told you that you are pulling words out of Metzen's mouth for your own negative thoughts.


The OP's interpretation of what Metzen said is pretty much spot on with the intentions and story direction that the Warcraft universe has taken. Even stories revolving around the "lesser" races have the humans or orcs playing the central figures in the resolution to the conflict (especially humans with the story of the Night Elves).


Even if that were true, if Metzen really meant only orcs and humans matter, why is that even a problem? The Warcraft universe has come a long long way, but to forget the humble core of Orcs & Humans this game is built on is usually a no-no in the gaming industry. The Halo franchise wouldn't have been as popular as it was if 2 and 3 went pure multiplayer and forgot the storyline. OP is basically delusional.
Thrall's Questline was just pretty much everything in the book previous made into a quest, and more clumsily.


No it wasn't, it was an entirely new storyline.
he Warcraft universe has come a long long way, but to forget the humble core of Orcs & Humans this game is built on is usually a no-no in the gaming industry.


Except Warcraft didn't gain it's massive popularity until WC3.

And Halo was set in the Marathon verse anyway, and it still did fine.
Wolfieone
85 Draenei Shaman
Omniasis
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Because Sentinels, Vindicators, etc, are their nation's protectors, not the Alliance's. Varian should not be able to move Sentinel forces. He should be only able to move 7th Legion and joint operation movements.And that's why the Horde roll over them - they're not united. The seperate militaries of the Alliance should be connected.


Ashenvale says hi. The Night Elves slaughter the Orcs like children.
World of Warcraft is just too big. This isn’t a bad thing, necessarily. We have this huge, amazing, beautiful world with all these complexities and problems. We can move around in it almost as though it’s real, as though we’ve walked into a fabulous book, right through the looking glass.

We, the players, have requested “more playable races” and we are still doing so. We’ve got, what? thirteen!! now, including the Pandaren. Too many perhaps? Not surprising that several of the races are seemingly forgotten. And, yes, I understand and agree there are important reasons why all of them should be featured, but there’s only so much room, even in this vast world. Time’s a problem, too; feature one race a year for thirteen(!) years? Then there are all the playable classes. In-game activities of many different kinds have to be imagined and brought to “reality” to tell stories that connect, and make sense, and are engaging, and still give players their “own adventure.” There’s music and voices and graphics, and a wealth of imagination, and it’s all playable on reasonably modest equipment.

This isn’t just a weekly tv show, people. It’s an extraordinary accomplishment.

The writing---meaning the overall story, as well as sub-plots---is weak in many places, yes. It’s been done in bits and pieces by perhaps too many different people in too many media. Same with characterisation. It’s a bit of a mish-mash, frequently confusing and internally inconsistent. It’s spotty: very good, and not so much. It needs major improvement overall, and I believe the developers know this. There are limitations to what is possible in the format of the game; we’re not going to get great literature, and we really don’t need or want it. We need cracking good adventure yarns, with the war as the background: hot war, cold war, it doesn’t matter. There are enough frictions and misunderstandings among the races, and enough lawless elements, not to mention threats to the entire world, to keep us fighting forever.

I hope Blizzard is building an enormous database of all the relationships and details and timelines of all of this, because they’ll surely need it in the future. They needed it back before Burning Crusade, truthfully. They need to have all this material thoroughly organised if they hope to have coherent story telling through the life of the game. It sometimes sounds as if they just make it up as they go along, but I doubt that’s actually the case. I trust they’ve had a basic plan or outline for years, groups of story ideas, and probably exit points they can adapt as time goes by, to account for changing technology, changing player interest, and changing fortunes.

If they have the motivation---and they seem genuinely passionate about this game---they can dramatically improve the stories and the balance. They do listen to the players, even if they don’t always “get it” right away. But also they shouldn’t listen to the players too much; ten million shouting people are not going to make a great story. Well, a lot fewer than that on the forums, but you get the point. Let’s keep shouting, but as courteously and constructively as possible. There’s good stuff in this thread, as in most actual discussion threads.

I want them to try the unexpected more often. In any artistic endeavour, it’s usually the fourth or fifth or tenth idea that's way better than the first. Back when we first heard bits about MoP, I thought it would be interesting if it was the Alliance that committed atrocities, that perhaps Garrosh could go down a dark road of his own volition, that he might yet be redeemed. Has it occurred to anyone that Varian could call himself High King, and the other races go along with it as a quirk of those silly young Humans; lets just keep him amused; it makes him happy. Then Varian starts throwing his weight around, and suddenly there’s potential for all kinds of friction within the Alliance. The siege of Orgrimmar could be an Alliance attack on an enemy in the midst of a civil war. We don’t know how it will work at all. They haven’t said that Garrosh dies. They have said that Thrall becomes Warchief again, but perhaps they’ll rethink that one.

We know so little; it’s premature to be condemning the whole idea. Nothing wrong with throwing out a few alarums and obstacles and opinions, to keep them on their toes, but let’s give them a chance to produce the thing.

Thanks to that Annual Pass, I am lucky to be in beta testing of Mists of Pandaria, and it is lovely and amazing: a true work of art! The world---basic structure such as landscape---seems solid and nearly flawless, though of course there are bugs in the questing and errors in the text and faulty characterisations and stories that don’t quite flow right. I don’t have any sense of the entire story yet. Lots of it isn’t open for testing yet, I’m a slow leveller, and the time I can devote to this unpaid job is limited. I have no answers at all to the big questions about lore, and story, and Horde vs Alliance balance, but others will do higher level content, and information will gradually emerge. Mists won't be perfect, but I have great hopes for it. It's certainly been fun and interesting so far.

And now, please excuse me. I have some bug reports to write up.
The elven story is more compelling IMHO, and you've done some great things with elves.

But they are, in Chris's own words, an extension of the pillar, and when I play through each act I feel like I'm always on the periphery. I hang out in SW why? Cause humans are our center, but I always feel like a visitor in someone else's story. It was worse in vanilla cause I kept hitting my head on the architecture in IF.

As an example of the hierarchy in each faction, how often has anybody at Blizz considered spending an entire expansion hanging out in Darnassus or Silvermoon instead of Stormwind or Org? Not likely, most folks think even venturing to a elf capital is time wasted. "What are you doing in Darnassus?" Its a running joke to drop a Magehole and send someone to an elven city.

To make matters worse, the lore doesn't really support elves in either faction, but again, you've done what you can. But still, I'm waiting for our turn to be the focus. My guess is that Worgen and Gnomes and spacegoats feel even more 'extensions'.

I'd contend that there's a goldmine in redefining alliances and story-focus, and allowing each race to have more time and energy, but its your game and you're going to do what you're going to do.

OP misrepresented Chris, but there's a little fire under all this smoke.
04/12/2012 05:07 PMPosted by Zarhym
What's your opinion on this? Metzen stated in his interview that only orcs and humans matter, so why do we even have the other races? Aesthetics?

You didn't just quote him out of context. You changed the meaning of what he said altogether:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/30/chris-metzen-on-mists-of-pandarias-story-and-why-the-players-are-the-real-villains/

Chris Metzen:
"...the pillars of the franchise are orcs and humans; it really is the Alliance and Horde by extension, and it really is those two groups beating the brains out of each other for an extended period of time. That’s always gotta be what Warcraft is about..."

He's saying that the franchise began with orcs and humans. Those two races are the pillars upon which the Alliance and Horde were built. But the story has progressed and evolved so much since Warcraft: Orcs and Humans. Just because the faction rivalry has its foundations in a war between two races doesn't mean we think no other races matter.

I'm not saying his statements shouldn't be up for discussion. But I beg you not to start the discussion based on a false pretense.

Edit:

04/12/2012 04:55 PMPosted by Skytotem
Look at what Blizzard says and how.

Seriously. Look.


Just as you are begging him not to start the discussion based on false pretense, I beg you 1) not to put words in his mouth.
2) look up the meaning of the word pillar. A pillar doesnt stop at just the beginning, it is there the entire time, supporting the structure (wow), which means, yes, no other races have been as important as those two. It means that the whole franchise was built around and continues to revolve around those two.
3) While you are accusing the OP of quoting out of context and changing the meaning of what Metzen said, arent you guilty of the same thing, which makes you a hypocrite? Just like you accuse the OP of changing the meaning to make a point, twisting it to fit whatever he thinks will best suit his arguement, you are guilty of doing the exact same thing in your reply.
04/13/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Melyria
You know, race representation is remarkably easy to fix. In Alliance camps just have different race's as guards. So instead of just Human guards we have Night Elves, Dwarves Worgen etc. The same applies for quest givers and quest NPC's.


Not really a 'viable' option. The Horde is a melting pot, so you have Tauren, Goblin, Trolls and Tauren all together. You see this in the EK a bit witht he Alliance, you see a fair few Gnomes and Dwarves in the human questing experience.

Night Elves and Draenei, are slightly more isolationist and 'out of the way'. Night Elves believe their forests are sacred and, ultimately, it is their land and nation. The Alliance has a history of having borders. After all, each race has their own nation, which they generally keep to.


After Theramore is destroyed the Alliance is supposed to dive head first into the War Effort. It's more than viable if what Blizzard says is accurate.
04/13/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Zarhym
I imagine this is why Zarhym drinks.

I haven't had a drink this year, thank you very much! I've been on the forums long enough that they've caused me to drink, AND caused me to stop drinking. :p


;)
04/13/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Zarhym
I imagine this is why Zarhym drinks.

I haven't had a drink this year, thank you very much! I've been on the forums long enough that they've caused me to drink, AND caused me to stop drinking. :p


Regardless, I think your extremely flippant attitude, even towards people that may deserve it, is something you may want to look at and consider.

Just my two cents.
Regardless, I think your extremely flippant attitude, even towards people that may deserve it, is something you may want to look at and consider.

Just my two cents.

So first the thread starts off with blatant slander against Metzen and the lore as a whole, and now it's slander against a blue who hasn't done anything even remotely offensive...

Why is this thread still here?

Not that the lore is perfect or anything, but this whole thread is founded on a false premise entirely and full of false assumptions and accusations. Let it be purged by fire.
"Supreme Allied Commander" does indeed exist:

http://www.wowhead.com/object=181475/monument-of-remembrance

http://www.wowpedia.org/images/3/37/Plaque-monumentofremembrance.jpg

Yet "High King" does not.

They have completely different connotations.


Why can't they just say? Lothar and Tyrelon were both commoners. Varian is a king. He'll do the same thing, but it gives him an elevated title. It doesn't HAVE to infer some more power over alliance races in internal and inter-kingdom areas, just in military matters.


Exactly, like how he's the president with politics and commander-in-chief with the military, varian is king with stormwind and high kind to the armies of the alliance

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