Blizz: Only Gameplay, orcs, and humans matter

General Discussion
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Original Metzenese:
"...the pillars of the franchise are orcs and humans; it really is the Alliance and Horde by extension, and it really is those two groups beating the brains out of each other for an extended period of time. That’s always gotta be what Warcraft is about...

English Translation:
"...the original pillars of the franchise are the orcs and humans; those pillars have grown and now include the entire Alliance and Horde. At it's core, Warcraft always has to be about long-term conflict between these two growing factions"

Forum-ian Translation:
"...the pillars of the franchise are Thrall and Money, and it really is about Ghostcrawler, Zarhym, and me getting Rank 1 Gladiator titles every season by extension; it really is about buffing the classes we play and then beating the brains out of noobs for an extended period of time. That's always gotta be what Warcraft is about... me"
^ amen
go in peace...
And do they feel that the on-fire, unconstructed, demolished Alliance towns were a mistake? Do they have any plans to address it?

We need answers.


Expected Zar response:

"We knew you would just cry about it not being rebuilt fast enough or complain that we could rebuild it faster than the inn in Westfall, so we decided not to waste time on it and add a cut-scene for the Horde in Twilight Highlands. "

While we cannot expect attention to all continuity issues with towns on fire, you would think at least Sentinel Hill would have been addressed.

Although, to play the advocate for the Horde, there are more than a few zones where you wonder "what happened and why did I even bother questing in this zone?" Badlands and Arathi Highlands being a few examples.
"We feel that there's no reason for us to be helping Thrall."

"Understood. He doesn't feel too much like a world hero."

Dragon Soul ships. Alliance forced to help Thrall.


I guess you could have just sat back and watched the world end.

None of your faction of little softies has the raw POWER to take Thrall's spot among the dragons.

DURRRRRRRR YOUR THE BAD GUY WHO JOINED A NEUTRAL FACTION FOR THE BETTER OF THE PLANET, IM NOT GUN HELP YOU CAUSE IM AN IGNORANT ALLIANCE LEWL FOR TEH LIONZ!


That's your logic.
04/12/2012 05:07 PMPosted by Zarhym
What's your opinion on this? Metzen stated in his interview that only orcs and humans matter, so why do we even have the other races? Aesthetics?

You didn't just quote him out of context. You changed the meaning of what he said altogether:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/30/chris-metzen-on-mists-of-pandarias-story-and-why-the-players-are-the-real-villains/

Chris Metzen:
"...the pillars of the franchise are orcs and humans; it really is the Alliance and Horde by extension, and it really is those two groups beating the brains out of each other for an extended period of time. That’s always gotta be what Warcraft is about..."

He's saying that the franchise began with orcs and humans. Those two races are the pillars upon which the Alliance and Horde were built. But the story has progressed and evolved so much since Warcraft: Orcs and Humans. Just because the faction rivalry has its foundations in a war between two races doesn't mean we think no other races matter.

I'm not saying his statements shouldn't be up for discussion. But I beg you not to start the discussion based on a false pretense.

Edit:

04/12/2012 04:55 PMPosted by Skytotem
Look at what Blizzard says and how.

Seriously. Look.


Seriously? Ok.

http://kotaku.com/5853771/hey-blizzard-its-not-a-good-idea-to-put-anti+gay-slurs-in-a-blizzcon-video

http://boingboing.net/2009/03/15/giant-orc-statue-on.html

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/04/01/know-your-lore-the-curious-dissonance-of-alliance-leveling/6

Oh maybe you meant in game. Let's see how our heroes are doing!

Former Alliance leader: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100815125156/wowwiki/images/8/80/Bolvar_Lich_King_Cata_Loading.jpg

Formder Horde leader: http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/9/97/Thrallandagraa.png

Trust us, we're looking.
Seriously, things are tense enough as it is, and I don't want to see anyone else bailing or getting banned tonight.

On topic and to whom it may concern: You have to understand it's hard to pull for any race other than the Humans and Orcs and not feel like your favourite race is just playing second fiddle.

I can understand the other races having secondary, supporting roles, but oftentimes, it feels like they don't even have that.

The Draenei and Blood Elves are said to be slated to get some time in the limelight, that's a good thing, but people're concerned that everything either faction does is all in the name or service of the story of Orcs and Humans.

It's not all doom and gloom, but there are always concerns.


Agreed. I had typed up a small thing but it read too much like whining and not constructive enough. What I can say is that I feel a lot of the more important non-orc and non-human developments seem to best benefit the orcs and the humans. In other words, sometimes tauren lore feels more like human or orc lore.
04/12/2012 06:45 PMPosted by Zarhym
The whole point was to create a character who was a little rough around the edges. It makes for a more interesting story when you see a flawed individual rise up to the challenges of being a truly great leader, which is what we have in store for Varian this expansion. So it was important for us to give him a bit of dimension in terms of personality.


That's exactly what was supposed to have happened with Garrosh, though. However, instead of seeing him rise from whiny child to struggling warchief, to power-hungry tyrant, to sadder and wiser leader, we're just watching all possible character development thrown aside so he can join the ranks of all the other Warcraft characters who have "gone insane/evil" and had to be killed, all so Thrall can take centre-stage again.

In that context this explanation feels more like, "You know what, we kind of screwed up with Garrosh, so we're just getting rid of him so we can try again with Varian's character."
The Orcs and humans ARE the center.

Orcs and Humans - two short-lived races compared to their counterparts, have each faction's flaws in them.

Humans can be greedy like dwarves, xenophobic like Night Elves, short-sighted like gnomes, savage like Worgen, and zealous like Draenei.

Orcs can be greedy like goblins, xenophobic like Blood Elves, short-sighted like trolls,
savage like Tauren and zealous like the Forsaken.

...

would you look at that.

They assembled these races in groups and they fight. As those races go, so go Azeroth. THat's what they mean by pillar - not that the story is about them, just they can use those two races to represent their factions.
A lot of the complaints in this thread seem to be about the "customers" not being heard by Blizzard. Which I honestly don't understand. What do you want them to listen about? It's their game, their story, their characters. They can do with the story/universe/characters what they like. Your arguments are akin to a Harry Potter fan trying to tell Rowling how to progress the story while she's writing the next book. It's her story!

A lot of authors create situations that readers don't like; a lot of screen writers create episodes that viewers don't like. The story is what the story is, if you don't like, then you don't like it, much like you don't like what happens in your real life sometimes.

I am an unashamed Blizzard fan and have been entertained by their works for many many years. Are there things that they do that I don't like sometimes? Yes. Do they sometimes take one of their universes or characters in directions that I don't like? Yes. But then again so do ALL of my favorite authors that I follow. Do I complain to those authors that they were stupid and aren't listening to me and other readers about how to progress THEIR story? No. Just like I don't complain when Blizzard does something to THEIR story that I don't like. I remain an avid fan and delve into the lore even more deeply to see where this action that I didn't like is going to take us.

Just my two cents, but I don't expect logic to get us anywhere on these forums.
04/12/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Enekie
We either get these answered or the threads simply won't stop.


Enekie, I will say outright that since our most unfortunate clashes several nights ago, I have come to respect your posts, and your passion for your cause. However, I do feel that I should point out that what that comes across as is that you're going to keep making threads about this topic until you guys get what you're looking for. Now while I respect sticking to your guns, remember that those threads are probably going to be as subject to the code of forum conduct as, say, the beta threads were.

Step cautiously. Otherwise your group risks doing more harm than good for itself in its attempt to be heard. The fallout from something like that could be really, really... for lack of a better word... icky.

Night, folks. Best of luck.
xenophobic like Night Elves,


Pet peeve here, and I don't mean to derail. From a misconception post of mine from a while back.

Xenophobia:
one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin

Many cite the Night Elves as being Xenophobic in nature due to their actions in WC3 where the now famous Ashenvale war first started. These same people ignore almost every other instance of the Warcraft 3 and TFT Night Elf campaign.

Even if you write off the various races who aided the Night Elves in their campaign, and even the Furbolgs, you have, throughout the WC3 Orc and Kaldorei campaigns spread through Ashenvale : Goblins,Dark Trolls, and, in TFT willingly aided Blood Elves and Orcs both.

Even further, the "initial attack" was preceded by Night Elves sending out scouts that were wide spread enough to get tales of the Orcs deeds during the First and Second wars. Cenarius himself ordered the charge against the Orcs, fearing that they had turned back to their demon worshiping days. The Night Elves go so far as to willingly allow Satyr to be part of their culture as long as they are not actively causing trouble, as seen by Terrorhoof and another Satyr. Eventually of course, they do end up causing trouble, which ends up with some demon being killed. Even then though, as was shown in Teldrassil, attempts to teach the demons lessons are made.

The ONLY time in recorded history that we know of where the Night Elves were actively xenophobic was during the War of the Ancients trilogy. And that was less Xenophobia, as the Night Elves were not afraid of the other cultures. They looked at them as inferior. Not in fear, but in disgust. And the invasion of the Burning Legion ended much of that.


You didn't just quote him out of context. You changed the meaning of what he said altogether:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/30/chris-metzen-on-mists-of-pandarias-story-and-why-the-players-are-the-real-villains/

Chris Metzen:He's saying that the franchise began with orcs and humans. Those two races are the pillars upon which the Alliance and Horde were built. But the story has progressed and evolved so much since Warcraft: Orcs and Humans. Just because the faction rivalry has its foundations in a war between two races doesn't mean we think no other races matter.

I'm not saying his statements shouldn't be up for discussion. But I beg you not to start the discussion based on a false pretense.

Edit:Seriously. Look.


Seriously? Ok.

http://kotaku.com/5853771/hey-blizzard-its-not-a-good-idea-to-put-anti+gay-slurs-in-a-blizzcon-video

http://boingboing.net/2009/03/15/giant-orc-statue-on.html

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/04/01/know-your-lore-the-curious-dissonance-of-alliance-leveling/6

Oh maybe you meant in game. Let's see how our heroes are doing!

Former Alliance leader: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100815125156/wowwiki/images/8/80/Bolvar_Lich_King_Cata_Loading.jpg

Formder Horde leader: http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/9/97/Thrallandagraa.png

Trust us, we're looking.


Thrall was the main protagonist for WC3, that statue is of WC3 Thrall. Please try harder to be irrelevant, it's so cute!

Former horde leader:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101102231244/wowwiki/images/4/4d/Cairne.JPG

Former horde member:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091213175514/wowwiki/images/8/8a/Deathbinger_Saurfang.jpg

Current Alliance leader:

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/5/59/Malfurion_tyrande2.jpg

See how easy it is to cherry-pick proof whenever you need to?

Get on my level.
Original Metzenese:
"...the pillars of the franchise are orcs and humans; it really is the Alliance and Horde by extension, and it really is those two groups beating the brains out of each other for an extended period of time. That’s always gotta be what Warcraft is about...

English Translation:
"...the original pillars of the franchise are the orcs and humans; those pillars have grown and now include the entire Alliance and Horde. At it's core, Warcraft always has to be about long-term conflict between these two growing factions"

Forum-ian Translation:
"...the pillars of the franchise are Thrall and Money, and it really is about Ghostcrawler, Zarhym, and me getting Rank 1 Gladiator titles every season by extension; it really is about buffing the classes we play and then beating the brains out of noobs for an extended period of time. That's always gotta be what Warcraft is about... me"
^ amen
go in peace...
praise Elune
None of your faction of little softies has the raw POWER to take Thrall's spot among the dragons.

DURRRRRRRR YOUR THE BAD GUY WHO JOINED A NEUTRAL FACTION FOR THE BETTER OF THE PLANET, IM NOT GUN HELP YOU CAUSE IM AN IGNORANT ALLIANCE LEWL FOR TEH LIONZ!That's your logic.


What? That has nothing to do with whats being discussed here. Even so it is a bit pointless when the character we help is just going rage war with us once he is done.
That's exactly what was supposed to have happened with Garrosh, though. However, instead of seeing him rise from whiny child to struggling warchief, to power-hungry tyrant, to sadder and wiser leader, we're just watching all possible character development thrown aside so he can join the ranks of all the other Warcraft characters who have "gone insane/evil" and had to be killed, all so Thrall can take centre-stage again.

In that context this explanation feels more like, "You know what, we kind of screwed up with Garrosh, so we're just getting rid of him so we can try again with Varian's character."
If Alliance players would do the starting zone for trolls and a few other related quests, the majority of Alliance players would be "fistpumping" for Vol'jin to do Garrosh in, not Thrall or Varian.
04/12/2012 07:20 PMPosted by Gasidinn
What? That has nothing to do with whats being discussed here.


see

"We feel that there's no reason for us to be helping Thrall."

"Understood. He doesn't feel too much like a world hero."

Dragon Soul ships. Alliance forced to help Thrall.


Or just blindly ignore it, you alliance are good at that.
i dont know i think the person who made topic had some valid points but thrall is still a neutral npc i mean if they kept to the warcraft
<warcraft orcs vs humans>
<warcraft 2 tides of darkness> and <warcraft 3 reign on chaos>
world of warcraft would kinda be dull i mean they are all 3 RTS games and for the kiddys that dont know what RTS game is it means real time strategy
any ways trying to make that into a MMORPG would be a bit hard keeping to all the facts i guess what i am saying is yes the storys alittle messed up and alot of wow players have no idea what they are missing story wise from warcraft but all we can do is hope warcraft 4 comes out soon! lol
04/12/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Ferlion
If what he was saying has been taken "out of context" then why are you making such efforts to ensure humans and orcs are always the "guys in charge" or superior to everyone else?

Isn't there actually a lore reason to support that though?
The humans more than any other race actively seeks to ally with other races. Isn't that why they have the 'diplomacy' racial?
Well, unless it's something related to druids or shamans, then it doesn't make sense to have the humans in charge.

And for the Horde the orcs are the most numerous faction and therefore had the both the numbers and the drive to try and better their situation (finding a homeland, going after resources). Their origin as a tribal warrior culture and the dark past as the old Horde also makes it logical that they are the first to step up and take charge when a threat rears its head.

I'd love to see a more varied composition of things in Mists, but it does make sense that the orcs and humans are the ones in charge there too.
It would be really cool to see some actual units of non-orcs/humans in Mists though.
Like a squad of kaldorei rogues or troll archers/axe-throwers.
With a gnome and blood elf in charge of them. :)
If Alliance players would do the starting zone for trolls and a few other related quests, the majority of Alliance players would be "fistpumping" for Vol'jin to do Garrosh in, not Thrall or Varian.


While I saw it I'm more invested in Varian killing him. They are rivals for better or worse and this time I want to see the duel.
04/12/2012 06:45 PMPosted by Zarhym
Similar to what I said about the Horde above, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms. If you're suggesting they're thematically better served by a republic or democracy, Azeroth lore says otherwise.

If I might, Zarhym-

I don't think anyone who has a problem with the concept of the High King (full disclosure: I am one of those people) has a beef with the concept of monarchy itself, but the idea of one monarchy or, indeed, any one government ruling over the entirety of the Alliance. The Horde is one state with one leader. The Alliance is, well... an Alliance. There are many states which are, in theory, equal within the Alliance. The heads of state of these nations, be they monarchs, theocrats or elected officials, meet and create policy together. The concept of a "high king" goes against the manner in which the Alliance was founded and portrayed. And frankly, Ferlion does have a point, why WOULD citizens of independent states be okay with giving up their sovereignty to be ruled by a king halfway around the world?

I get why you guys are doing the "High King" stuff. The Alliance does need a central figure to rally around, and frankly, it's far easier to write a singular heroic figure than have our quests be taking the minutes of the Alliance's most recent meeting to organize international tax policy. But why does this central figure need to be a KING, with all of the autocratic power and, frankly, human-centric culture that entails? Why must the character be a king, when a Supreme Allied Commander serves the same role? There's precedent for it within the lore, and frankly, if it was good enough for Anduin Lothar, it should be good enough for Varian Wrynn.

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