Rumors about 25 mans, please no Blizz

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My argument in 1 sentence, because reading is tricky: 25 man raiding does not need any further tangible reward, if the experience enough is not worth it then DON'T DO IT; you have no grounds to ask that what you get for doing it be increased.

This thread has nothing to do with 10v25 which his harder drama, so don't.

Recently I have read many suggestions about how Blizzard should 'save' 25 man raiding. I really hope that these changes do not come about. I am going to edit this post as I have gained a lot of insight in the last 10 pages of text.

- Removing shared lockout between 10 and 25.
This would be great for 25 man raids, but logistically devastate 10 man raids. ICC showed us a 25 man raid can easily have multiple 10 man groups exist within it that run outside of the normal raid schedule, this is not possible for 10 mans. Blizzard themselves has cited that despite it being a 'choice' most of us felt obligated to clear both weekly.

- Splitting achievements between 10 and 25.
This again would be terrible for 10 man raiding, while only benefiting 25 main raiding. Answer the question below honestly, which is more likely:

25H guild clears heroic DS, forms 10 man groups to clear heroic DS 10 for achievements.

10H guild clears heroic DS, forms 25 man group to clear heroic DS 25 for achievements?

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The biggest flaw in this entire concept is that Blizzard is in any way responsible for saving 25 man content, or boosting its popularity if you feel saving is not the right word since it still very much exists. Blizzard themselves stated that the motivation to raid 25s is because you enjoy 25s, so if they cannot stand on their own merit why do they deserve to survive?
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The most common arguments I have seen:
"10 mans have had tons of changes made to favor them!"
This is a bad argument. Lets look at the changes between Wrath to Cataclysm for 10 man raiding: Blizzard created a shared loot table instead of designing one specific to 10 man raiding.

That's it, that is literally the only change. So Blizzard actually removed the only 10 man specific content that was left in the game and equalized both raid formats; how is equalization in any way the same thing as favoritism? It is not that your raid format fell behind in a biased environment, it is that it feel behind on equal footing.


"25 mans take more work, so if Blizzard does not want them to fail they should have more reward"

This is a logical fallacy for a few reasons. First, the assumption that Blizzard is responsible for preserving 25 man raiding like it is a unicorn is a bit silly. Blizzard stated that if you prefer 25 man raiding, then do it, of you prefer 10s, then do it.

You cannot say "I like 25s but they are more work, so give me more reward". 25 man raiding is either enough of it's own reward, or it is not. If it is not, you know your options, if it is, then keep working.

"Blizzard forced 25 man raiders to go to 10s'"
Easily my favorite argument regarding this. Lets look at this logically, at the start of Cataclysm 25 man raiding was the majority of the community. So what happened? If people wanted to raid 25s they had every opportunity to do so, so why did 25 man guilds dwindle?

If 25 man raiding is the preferred format didn't the death of a few 25 mans cause a surge in recruitment opportunities for those that remained? If 25 mans are what most people preferred how could it possibly dwindle? Every 25 man guild death (and there was a lot!) would have just made the remaining guilds even stronger, but the number kept dropping? The only logical conclusion is 25 mans are dieing because the community is completely happy with running 10s.

"If a 10 man guild wants to do 25 man content they can Pug"
... Pugging 15 people for a heroic raid is not a viable solution, I appreciate your input but yeah, no.

"You hate 25 mans/You want 25 mans to die/You have no idea how 25s work"
Not at all, but all 25 man raiders need to understand that basically any change that improves 25 man raiding will hurt 10 man raiding. I don't want 25 mans to die, but I think going out of our way to save them is silly as well, let nature take its course. Lastly I have raided every tier of content since launch, I know the logistics of every aspect of a Guild.

"If an aspect of the game is dieing, that is bad game design the designer needs to fix"
One of the best things I have read in this entire thread, and I do think Blizzard is fixing it; or rather it is fixing itself. 25 man, as so many of you 25 man raiders yourselves are pointing out, are more work then they are worth. Blizzard increased the size of the raiding community massively by introducing 10s. More people are raiding, and the less efficient more poorly designed raid size is being phased out. Sounds like a solid fix to me.

"The only reason 10s are successful is because they are logistically easier"
Not really. I wont deny that some aspects of 25 man raiding are inherently more difficult due to the number of people, but most of this can be overcome with good leadership and delegation. You have to manage more people, but you have more people to help you manage. Also 10 man guilds suffer the same shortcomings as 25 man guilds. When 1 member does not show up it is devastating; when one member is late we must wait for them. 10 man has its own hardships that are quite numerous, some of which revolve on the much slower pace a 10 man gears up due to how much more specific your gear needs are.
04/16/2012 04:39 AMPosted by Applemask
The biggest theory I have heard is that 10 and 25 man raids will have a separate lockout again. This is great... for 25 mans, who can easily run their 25 man raid followed by 2/3 10 man raids for extra loot but really puts 10 mans at a disadvantage. Not to mention that this would completely negate Blizzards original design philosophy that we should not be forced into running the same instance twice in one week.


Problem is, a lot of 25 man raiders have been forced into 10s simply because there is no incentives anymore for recruits to join 25 man when 10s are easier to run / organise.

Besides with LFR people in hardcore guilds are forced to run raids more than once per week to fill out tier and such for HM progression early on. Makes absolutely no difference.

Not only that the pug raiding scene was 100x better in wrath with the seperate lockouts. People ran one raid size with their guild and pugged the other.. leading to more people raiding, more people staying online... better server community and more interaction as well as experience for new raiders.

LFR cannot come anywhere close to that given it's an extremely dumbed down version of normal mode raiding.
04/16/2012 04:39 AMPosted by Applemask
I have read and heard many rumors


stopped reading there.

The mere CONCEPT that 25 man raiding needs more incentive to get people to do it shows that it deserves to fail, you should not need a superior reward than others to play the way you want to play, because playing the way you want to play is its own reward.


Really? So why did blizzard increase the gear level of 10mans in cataclysm? Your own logic fails when applied to 10mans as well.
Problem is, a lot of 25 man raiders have been forced into 10s simply because there is no incentives anymore for recruits to join 25 man when 10s are easier to run / organise.

Besides with LFR people in hardcore guilds are forced to run raids more than once per week to fill out tier and such for HM progression early on. Makes absolutely no difference.

Not only that the pug raiding scene was 100x better in wrath with the seperate lockouts. People ran one raid size with their guild and pugged the other.. leading to more people raiding, more people staying online... better server community and more interaction as well as experience for new raiders.

LFR cannot come anywhere close to that given it's an extremely dumbed down version of normal mode raiding.


I agree your post 100%.


The mere CONCEPT that 25 man raiding needs more incentive to get people to do it shows that it deserves to fail, you should not need a superior reward than others to play the way you want to play, because playing the way you want to play is its own reward.


Really? So why did blizzard increase the gear level of 10mans in cataclysm? Your own logic fails when applied to 10mans as well.

Another really good point and I agree with it as well.

I hope these rumors are true. I had a blast in Wrath running 25 man with my guild and running 10 man with a group of friends. I had so much fun.

Now I run 1 raid that last 1 night (unless we're working on hard modes) every week. Would like to do more than that. I love to raid.

The whole thing about people feeling like they're forced to to something is silly. If you don't want to run both then don't. Let us run both if we want to.
I will preface this by saying, I am not a 25 man raider. My computer can get a little bit cranky with that much going on at the same time... so I am not biased for 25 mans based on my personal preference.

That said: In my opinion, making the locks shared was a really really bad idea. I get that they didn't want people to feel forced to do 10 and 25 man, but it's not their job (or shouldn't be at least) to police our play time. If you do not want to do both, then don't do both... if you feel FORCED to do both, well then your issues go deeper than 10/25 sharing locks. :P

Having choice is good. And yeah the CHOICE to do both IS still a choice whether people want to accept that or not.


Problem is, a lot of 25 man raiders have been forced into 10s simply because there is no incentives anymore for recruits to join 25 man when 10s are easier to run / organise.


People who care about what raid size they participate in can find a guild of that size to raid with. I've never had trouble finding a 25m if that's what I wanted -- heck, recruitment forum is filled with em.
04/16/2012 05:39 AMPosted by Mescyntoo
People who care about what raid size they participate in can find a guild of that size to raid with. I've never had trouble finding a 25m if that's what I wanted -- heck, recruitment forum is filled with em.


Not everyone can afford transfer fees you realise. On my server, Hordeside there are a grand total of 3 25 man guilds. One is a top 50 guild which most of us will never get into and the other 2 aren't recruiting atm.

My guild was 25 man until attrition drove us to 10s as we couldn't get recruits when 10 man guilds were more attractive to them due to the ease of play. You can't progress HM with less than 25 players so it drove us behind the curve.
04/16/2012 04:57 AMPosted by Evilweevil
So why did blizzard increase the gear level of 10mans in cataclysm?


Because they saw how popular 10m raiding was and decided to make it competitive. It had nothing to do with giving incentives to run 10's since, realistically, gear distribution in 10s is atrocious compared to 25's because the loot tables are built with 25 man raids in mind.
They need to remove the shared lock out for 10-25 man raiding, Keep gear the same for those who don't like 25 mans but make it where everyone has a choice if they want to run 25 man they can.
...In my opinion, making the locks shared was a really really bad idea. I get that they didn't want people to feel forced to do 10 and 25 man, but it's not their job (or shouldn't be at least) to police our play time. If you do not want to do both, then don't do both... if you feel FORCED to do both, well then your issues go deeper than 10/25 sharing locks. :P


The correct path of progression is the one you/your guild chooses to take. No one HAD to do both 10 and 25s. Those of us who enjoyed doing so miss the separate lockouts. I do, however, agree that drop ilvl should stay the same for both.
04/16/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Morenn
That said: In my opinion, making the locks shared was a really really bad idea. I get that they didn't want people to feel forced to do 10 and 25 man, but it's not their job (or shouldn't be at least) to police our play time. If you do not want to do both, then don't do both... if you feel FORCED to do both, well then your issues go deeper than 10/25 sharing locks. :P


The problem is it forces people to run the content twice to get the same reward. I shouldn't need to run DS25, nor should a 25m raider need to do it in 10s, to prove that I know how to kill Madness for the achievement when I've had the fight on farm for months.
04/16/2012 05:47 AMPosted by Bomdanil
The problem is it forces people to run the content twice to get the same reward. I shouldn't need to run DS25, nor should a 25m raider need to do it in 10s, to prove that I know how to kill Madness for the achievement when I've had the fight on farm for months.


Elaborate, please. In what way are you FORCED?
04/16/2012 04:39 AMPosted by Applemask
Please Blizz, don't hurt the flourishing 10 man raiding environment simply because 25 man raid leaders dislike the overhead and logistics involved in playing the way they claim to love.


Hmmm... The prayers and pleas of the flourishing 25 man raiding environment went unheeded back at the start of Cataclysm.. If the theory you propose is true then I say.. The reckoning has come for what was done 24 months prior. We who enjoyed the old ways have not forgotten... nor should we.
04/16/2012 05:49 AMPosted by Holsteiner
Elaborate, please. In what way are you FORCED?


In the way that, in this hypothetical situation, it would be a requirement to do if I wanted credit? I have Madness on farm, I shouldn't need to run it with 15 more bumbling morons from trade in order to get the achievement that says I know how to kill the boss. Needing to fill a carry quota in Wrath because the only thing you needed to down anything up to 6/12 heroic was warm bodies was annoying, and being able to swap fully to a 10m roster was the happiest day I had in Wrath.

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