Rumors about 25 mans, please no Blizz

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10mans has been progression back in wotlk as well.

10s were never progression content in Wrath. Ever. The progression race was restricted to 25m content, and it remained that way until T11 came out.
04/17/2012 05:01 AMPosted by Attacked
10mans has been progression back in wotlk as well. Again it's because 10 man in general is a joke. I'm not surprise there.

I'll bite. Let me know when you finally get savior and I'll step out for you so you can show us how easy pretendlol 10's are. Btw, those orange daggers go really nicely with the rest of your set.
i am against seperate lockouts and i hope it doesnt happen 1 it will make me less competetive as my computer cannot handle 25s i mean i can go into them but i dont perform nearly as well due to frame rate. so i will be stuck in 10 mans not being able to compete with the guys getting multiple chances at loot every week if they make them seperate lockouts i better get 2 10 man lockouts per week!

also for you people who think 10s are easier you can think that all you like but you are wrong and its only your opinion 1 25 mans you have more people which means more available buffs raid cds healer cds tank 4 sets like maybe a couple feral druids that can go bear on progression your dps isnt much of an issue cus you got more legendaries and such to pickup the slack so you can have a feral druid go bear for 15 seconds pop survival instincts for a major incoming damage phase and whatnot. in 10 man you dont have that you will be lucky to get most of the raid buffs and you have to have the perfect comp which isnt always the case. also you may not have a feral druid to use 4 set and if you are on progression you might not have the dps to allowe him to go bear form touse it. also you only have 2-3 healers in 10 man and maybe you have a holy priest or rest druid with no actually damage reducing cooldowns only op healing cds. you have 1-2 tanks same as 25 but overall you have less cooldowns to save your raid. less buffs in most cases so lower dps. another thing in 10 man you have 10 people and 2 pieces of loot. what if the same items drop every week and they get sharded. in a 25 you have 25 people to roll on the items and like 5 drops or w/e i doubt you have tier going to offspec and sharded trinkets early on in progression like a 10 man might. all in all anyone who says 10 is easier or 25 is easier is just naieve. 25m actual raid encounters are easier but organizing 25 people isnt always easy especially when people dont log and you have someone gquit every day 10 man raid mechanics are more dificult to deal with but you have a more tight knit group less people to organise and much easier to coordinate things in real time. but if 1 person doesnt show up in your 10 man normally you dont have a bench with 20 recruits waiting to come in like most 25m guilds do.
I have read through most of the posts. First of all, we are having an important discussion but it's based on a rumor. However, it is an interesting thought and people are definitely passionate in their views. I respect people that have posted their opinion in a cordial manner and backed up their views with facts or logic.

I have been raiding since Vanilla. I ran in the 40 man raids, they were tough to fill but lots of chaotic fun. Then came the 20 mans, ZG and AQ, that were added in. Twenty man was very exciting at the time because it made it so much easier to find the people. However, we had to sit people out or do two runs, a logistical nightmare when you don't have static attendance and you have 2 raid IDs. Also, you needed gear from MC to do ZG and gear from BWL to do AQ20. It really made progression hard when the gear was distributed across both 20 man and 40 man raids.

Then in BC, We got 10 man raids. Blizz has often said that Karazhan was the most popular raid ever. The problem with that statement was that most guilds had to run 2 or 3 teams. So, the statistics are padded. We ran multiple raids to keep our members raiding after the loss of 40 man raids. We also needed to gear people for the 25 man raids in BC. Kara wasn't that popular, although I did like it. Karazhan was a neccessary stepping stone to get to Gruul's and Magtheridon etc. I saw the same scenario over and over in BC. Guilds would form multiple teams for Kara 10 mans. Those teams would feel separate or less than the other teams and leave en masse to form another guild based on 10 mans. So yes, 10 man raids in BC broke 25 man guilds into pieces.

In Wrath, we got to do every raid in both 10 and 25. They had their own lockout. We could do 10 mans or 25 mans by choice based on whoever wanted to raid that day. It was awesome to have that flexibility. Often, our officers and raid leaders would pug the 25 mans to learn the strategy and then come lead the 10 mans. There was a lot more networking with other guilds and pug leaders to get 25 mans done. Meanwhile your core guild group does their 10 man and is happy.

Now here we are in Cata. Raid lockouts are shared and it truly sucks. We are forced to choose 10 or 25 every night based on who we have to raid. If people are sitting on standby, they can't go pug the other lockout. We have lost a tool we had to learn fights. We lost all the networking and recruiting contacts we used to make so easily.

We are trying to get Heroic DS down and we have a core group of 10 more skilled players that are past heroic Morchok and working on Hagara and Ultraxion. We have to jump through all sorts of hoops so that the 25 man can also work on heroic content. You are locked to 10 or 25 man heroic when you do heroic raids. There is no doing 10 man heroic one boss and 25 heroic on another. We have to have the core group do their 10 man heroic separately and then bring their alts to the 25 man heroic so we can attempt both. I think that's a lot to ask of players but we are loyal and want our guild to succeed.

I hope Blizzard is listening and that they will change the current system of shared lockouts. Please give us back the freedom and flexibility to choose our raid size without being punished for it. As it is now, Most guilds are clearing DS in one night and there is nothing left to do for the week. We can't even have the core team go work on heroic modes since the 25 regular we did with the larger group locks us out of heroic for the week. We are having to choose between taking everyone to DS 25 Regular or having half the raid team sit so we can do heroics with the core 10 group.

It's really a simple fix. Loot should still be the same gear and have the same IL. You could make a few special pieces for the last boss that would be cosmetically different between 10 and 25 raids. Or have all the Tier pieces be exactly the same and the non tier pieces be cosmetically different. Everything would have the same IL and Stats. For Achievements, keep all the raid boss achievements shared between 10 and 25. Then continue the current system of different special achievements for 10 and 25.

It really is possible here to make most of the players happy.

Thank you for reading,
Its easier to pick 10 good players from your guild then 25.
Coming from a 10 man raiding guild and loving the 10 man experience I have to say that bring back double lockouts I dont think will "kill it". Personally I think that after a long day of work and not coming home to raiding I wouldnt mind hopping into a 25 man raid to pass time rather than hanging out in stormwind/ogrimar for the rest of the night. So while you have some valid points this one is not one.
04/17/2012 05:09 AMPosted by Lilspinner
Its easier to pick 10 good players from your guild then 25.

This... a million times this.

Could the illusion of difficulty perhaps be stoked by having to fill raids with second string players?
04/17/2012 05:05 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
Maybe the reason is 10 mans are easier and Vodka stuck to 25s.

Except if that were a valid comment there'd be more than just 2 10m guilds in the top 10.
04/17/2012 05:08 AMPosted by Attacked
10 mans were progression in wotlk as well.

No they weren't. There was no such thing as a "10m progression raider" in Wrath because there was no 10m progression race.
I think you over thought this thread... TOO many invalid paragraphs.
Bringing back both lockouts would IMO definitely help with server community.

One of the nicest things with Wrath (particularly ICC) was that the 2 lockouts encouraged pug raiding - your main/geared alt was free to raid outside of the guild's set raid size.
Server pugging was 200% a better experience than LFR for the fun and challenge of raiding content and made finding potential raid recruits on server easier. (Don't get me wrong, I think LFR is a great addition to the game).

So having a loot lockout to prevent rapid gearing would help balance this, and then separate achievements for each raid size (locked from getting both on any one toon) as a bonus for each size's purist.
we would probably have savior this week if disconnects and people not trying, cause it's a 25 man, last week, didn't !@#$ us over with hspine.

That's again why 10 man's a joke. Like I said, 25 mans suffers in having alot more variables to cause a fail than 10s.

If anything having more than twice the number of players would make random disconnects more forgiving wouldn't it? We lose one healer past the third platform and it's a wipe. We single tank madness and alternate impale soaks between dps. My point is, a smaller group is far less forgiving so don't even try to argue that.

And as far as people not trying? How does that have a single thing to do with raid size? Oh, well our raiders don't try so 10's are rollface. Wat
the only reason the top 10 are almost all 25s is because the top guilds in the world are 25s and they have no intention of doing 10s paragon vodka all those guilds have been 25m heroic progression guilds since wrath and they have had top players stick with them that is the only reason 25s are still on top. you guys are looking at it wrong... 25ms are not harder or easier they have their pro's and con's just like 10s do they are the same if you add it all up... you cant look at it as 2 10 mans guilds in the top 10 you only need to look at it like this vodka paragon blood legion these guilds are the best guilds and they will always be on top... they just happen to be raiding 25 mans. if they where raiding 10 mans then there would be 10 10 man guilds in the top 10 instead of 2 you feel me?

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