Why the DS nerfs are good for the game

General Discussion
If you think about it, these nerfs are beneficial to everyone.

Category 1: World first contenders.

These people are not affected at all by the nerfs because the first wave of nerfs typically happen AFTER the world first race is over (exception: Light of Dawn, where world first kill occurred at 5%. It was widely believed that Light of Dawn was tuned for 10% nerf and it was an incredible accomplishment for Paragon to do it at 5%. Thought to be impossible at 0% with the gear available at the time). They actually benefit from the nerfs because then their alts can do more hardmodes faster and thus gear up quicker, allowing them to have a more flexible raid comp when the next race begins (not relevant for DS since it is the last patch of the expansion).

Category 2: Not world first contenders, but can clear DS before first wave of nerfs

Will still get all the gear and titles before everyone else, and like the above category, can gear up alts much faster and easier. Are not affected by nerfs for their progression because they are fast enough to beat the content before nerfs come out, even if they are nowhere close to world first.

Category 3: People who did not clear hardmodes before the first wave of nerfs

It is no longer classic WoW or BC where bosses are expected to last 3 months from first attempt to dead. Content is now released close to bug-free and almost all of the fights appear on the PTR before released. Therefore if your guild is not hardcore enough to have practiced on the PTR for months before a fight goes live, you shouldn't reasonably expect to succeed before nerfs happen. Most likely, your guild does NOT have what it takes to beat content before nerfs anyway since you don't have the dedication and/or skill to play at the level of the guilds in categories 1 and 2. You should be glad Blizzard is nerfing content for you so that you can actually defeat the bosses.

Category 4: People who aren't even trying for hardmodes and are complaining the game is 'too easy'

Makes no sense. Do hardmodes, fail, and then realize the game is not so easy.

Category 5: People who can't even kill normal madness at 15+%

You need the nerfs. These nerfs help you more than anyone else.

So can anyone come up with a legitimate reason why the nerfs are bad, other than:

1) I have cool/exclusive gear and I want to maintain the prestige

2) Our guild would've killed [insert boss here] if we had 1 more week! I swear! (99% of these claims are false)

3) The raid is too easy and I am bored (exception: if you have 8/8 H before 5% nerf).
One issue is that nerfs are not the only tool to enable players to down content. Other methods can coexist that do not contribute to the erosion of skill of the general player base.
04/28/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Elgunaz
Content is now released close to bug-free

I just want to point out that Thrall still drops people in the Maelstrom and that's a ruined attempt for a 10.
Stupid world shaman.
I just want to point out that Thrall still drops people in the Maelstrom and that's a ruined attempt for a 10.
Stupid world shaman


It can be a wipe for a 25 man too, depending on dps checks and what role that person was doing. A tank dropping into the maelstrom is an insta wipe call on 25 normal or heroic.
I just want to point out that Thrall still drops people in the Maelstrom and that's a ruined attempt for a 10.
Stupid world shaman.


I haven't had that happen in 7 weeks of kills. O.o
Definitely thought that was fixed and that the majority of people who die on that fight are on the side platforms and move towards the side w/ no platforms.
04/28/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Olmuddbuht
One issue is that nerfs are not the only tool to enable players to down content. Other methods can coexist that do not contribute to the erosion of skill of the general player base.


Because only the 1% of the playerbase can even get a chance at seeing content (sans heroic), amirite?

Also, pray tell what these magical "other methods" exist? Not every guild has the coordination of a world first contender guild, nor do they have consistent raid schedules where everyone can show up at the same time week after week.
04/28/2012 11:39 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
So can anyone come up with a legitimate reason why the nerfs are bad, other than:


Because it allows people who would have otherwise gotten better at the game to simply wait for nerfs and win.


No it doesn't. This game always grows easier as time passes, nerfs or not, simply because each week you are getting better gear.

Of course, growing stronger because of gear allows people to keep the illusion that they are themselves becoming better at the game, and maybe that's what you are alluding to.
One issue is that nerfs are not the only tool to enable players to down content. Other methods can coexist that do not contribute to the erosion of skill of the general player base.


Because it allows people who would have otherwise gotten better at the game to simply wait for nerfs and win.


As oppose to people waiting until MoP to finish DS? Look, like it or not people will someday faceroll these raids. And after what happened after removing the Naxx drake they have probably realized that removing incentive for people to raid old content is bad.

It is better that Blizz "encourages" people to keep playing in the now and slightly challenge themselves. Because like everything else in the game DS will become old content and truly be faceroll next expac.
04/28/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Makoraias
One issue is that nerfs are not the only tool to enable players to down content. Other methods can coexist that do not contribute to the erosion of skill of the general player base.


Because only the 1% of the playerbase can even get a chance at seeing content (sans heroic), amirite?

Also, pray tell what these magical "other methods" exist? Not every guild has the coordination of a world first contender guild, nor do they have consistent raid schedules where everyone can show up at the same time week after week.


1. Wait until MoP for another 5 levels and completely overgear the instance
2. ICC 30% buff and make people think they somehow now do awesome dps
3. Started with Dragon Soul Radiance and remove it later on
4. Make more gear drop from boss kills so people gear up even faster
5. Make another set of heroic 5-mans that drop 390 gear, or some other absurd level of gear

None of these other methods are really better and you could argue that some are even worse. If the game didn't have a gear reset each expansion then I'd agree that no nerf is necessary.
04/28/2012 11:39 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
So can anyone come up with a legitimate reason why the nerfs are bad, other than:
Because it allows people who would have otherwise gotten better at the game to simply wait for nerfs and win.


If they haven't gotten better by now, they probably won't get much better if they have a few more weeks of banging their head against a brick wall.

Seriously though: the hardest, most devastating and biggest guild-killing boss right now is the Raid Attendance boss. The nerfs -- while they suck and I hate them -- are primarily designed to help fight the Raid Attendance boss.

I accept the nerfs are necessary and help the game. But I still hate them.
04/28/2012 11:25 AMPosted by Waraila
It can be a wipe for a 25 man too, depending on dps checks and what role that person was doing. A tank dropping into the maelstrom is an insta wipe call on 25 normal or heroic.

Fair. I mentioned it because I know of several times that the 25 man guild on the server has completed the fight when one of their DPS stepped off the side of Red or a healer got dunked. Of course a tank would be an immediate wipe, however.

I just want to point out that Thrall still drops people in the Maelstrom and that's a ruined attempt for a 10.
Stupid world shaman.


I haven't had that happen in 7 weeks of kills. O.o
Definitely thought that was fixed and that the majority of people who die on that fight are on the side platforms and move towards the side w/ no platforms.

Unfortunately not completely fixed. It doesn't seem to happen as often, however. (I got dumped off of Bronze heading back to Green the other day and spent the rest of the night muttering "stupid world shaman".) Now I try to make sure I'm casting something when I jump across now if I'm playing the fight as resto just so the server realises I'm still there.

If they haven't gotten better by now, they probably won't get much better if they have a few more weeks of banging their head against a brick wall.

That's not always true, especially since gear is in a constant flux. While it was a different time, I spent 3 months wiping on M'uru and I felt that if we had just had one more week we could have defeated him honestly instead of getting it handed to us when the nerf hit. (Could be wrong though, we were kinda bad.)
Facerolling something because you overgear and overlevel it is not the same.


Its pretty much the same. Better that Blizz give incentive for people to do it now and still be challenge abit rather than for Blizz not to implement it, people quite because there is no "new" content for them progress in and wait till MoP to faceroll it.
1. Wait until MoP for another 5 levels and completely overgear the instance
2. ICC 30% buff and make people think they somehow now do awesome dps
3. Started with Dragon Soul Radiance and remove it later on
4. Make more gear drop from boss kills so people gear up even faster
5. Make another set of heroic 5-mans that drop 390 gear, or some other absurd level of gear

None of these other methods are really better and you could argue that some are even worse. If the game didn't have a gear reset each expansion then I'd agree that no nerf is necessary.


None of those methods work.

1. That's just stupid because then we're back to the Sunwell issue of having less people seeing/clearing the raids until after they were relevant. Blizzard is trying to get as many people into the content as possible, not make it exclusive to a small section of the playerbase.

2. The DS nerf is practically the same thing as the ICC buff, except instead of buffing the players, the bosses are getting nerfed. They both work the same way to begin with, just different implementation.

3. Then that would trivialize world-first contender raiders and World First achievements.

4. DS has already been said to be the last content patch for Cataclysm. The next content patch will be the pre-MoP event.

5. See #4.


Because it allows people who would have otherwise gotten better at the game to simply wait for nerfs and win.


People don't take 20 weeks to get 'better'. If they wanted to get better, they would've become better looooooong before 20 weeks. It takes all of 20 minutes to look up the basics of your class, another few hours to practice the rotation on the dummies, and maybe 2-3 raids (at most) to really get it down pat. That's 3 weeks' worth of time. If they're not doing well by then, then they never will because they never bothered to put in the effort and/or have the wrong mentality ("it's just a game, why take it so seriously").

Hence, nerfs are necessary.
I possibly would of downed H Death wing if I didn't focus on PvP this season, ahh well.
the nerfs came too soon. my guild was progressing at a decent pace thru the instance. i mean honestly, for a guild that has to pug at least one person a week, and never went to the ptr, we cleared up to spine 2 weeks before the nerf. we just didnt have time to work on madnessthat week or the next. the week of the nerf we had our dragon order set up, our healing CDs worked out, and tank CDs timed. we cleared the raid but we felt underwhelmed that we had the nerf set in place.

We did that on 2 raid nights, now with the place on farm still pugging 1 or 2 people we clear heroic morchok, and normal everything else in 2 hours on 1 night and thats all we end up doing in an average week. the nerfs seem to hurt more then help from what ive seen. Why would you want the content to go faster? why not keep it at a steady pace and keep people playing longer? DS was about mechanics for 7/8 fights and gear/skill for one fight. Nerfs are all evil but 2 months in is far too soon, and then 10% at 3 months in and 15% at 4 months. i bet in the next week or 2 we will see the 20% nerf. hell by then i could take my fresh 85 hunter thru and be fully geared in 3 weeks.

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