The "everyone wins!" mindset is a bad design

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Players used to have some toughness. Wipe? Regroup and do it again. Wipe 10 times? Regroup and try it again. Once you beat it, you feel like you accomplished something. Now? One wipe, and people quit. They actually laugh at people for dying, and quit because they feel ENTITLED to winning with NO DEATHS. Not even LFR should be that. That's installing an I WIN button in the game.


Yea...I gotta say, this is pretty sad these days. =/
But gear-wise, doesn't badge gear help with this already?


Apparently badge gear wasn't doing enough.

The bottom line is that Blizzard seems to have no interest in making a game the overwhelming majority of their players can't beat on any difficulty setting. They seem to want a fairly specific percentage of the players to pass each milestone after a set period of time. To that end, they adjust the difficulty of encounters as time passes, so that the majority of their players still have something to do from one night to the next. If they see players getting stuck on something, they'll soften it up until people bust through it.

If that sort of development disappoints you, it's essential for the sake of your own happiness that you take your business elsewhere. There are game developers who still release content based on the idea that only a select few players should be able to beat the game. Those games tend to have smaller playerbases (and as a result, a smaller development budget,) so they really need your business as much as you need their challenge.
There are game developers who still release content based on the idea that only a select few players should be able to beat the game. Those games tend to have smaller playerbases (and as a result, a smaller development budget,) so they really need your business as much as you need their challenge.


I wonder if this and the decline in player base are related. Blizzard used to be one of these companies.
05/02/2012 09:57 AMPosted by Kaganfindel
If that sort of development disappoints you, it's essential for the sake of your own happiness that you take your business elsewhere. There are game developers who still release content based on the idea that only a select few players should be able to beat the game. Those games tend to have smaller playerbases (and as a result, a smaller development budget,) so they really need your business as much as you need their challenge.


This exactly. Give the challenge dungeons in MoP a try when that's released. Maybe those will bring the challenge some players are after. Try Ironman rules. Blizzard is unlikely to change the formula that's made them one of the most successful MMOs to date because a minority of players don't like it.

The game is flexible enough to allow for players to make it challenging for themselves. Guilds allow like minded players to gather together and run under their own rules. If that won't work, find a hardcore game that suits your purpose.
weeeelllll... let's see here.

blizzard is headquartered in berkley, california, which is one of the birthplaces of liberalism and political correctness.

Please stop. You are making the rest of us conservatives look bad.
05/02/2012 10:01 AMPosted by Gnurgle
Blizzard is unlikely to change the formula that's made them one of the most successful MMOs to date because a minority of players don't like it.


Why do people say things like this? They did change the formula... This is the change. The everyone wins mindset is not how blizzard has done wow since the start.
05/02/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Reveries
There are game developers who still release content based on the idea that only a select few players should be able to beat the game. Those games tend to have smaller playerbases (and as a result, a smaller development budget,) so they really need your business as much as you need their challenge.


I wonder if this and the decline in player base are related. Blizzard used to be one of these companies.


LOOOOOOOL

Since when?
05/02/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Paladinchaz
Players used to have some toughness. Wipe? Regroup and do it again. Wipe 10 times? Regroup and try it again. Once you beat it, you feel like you accomplished something. Now? One wipe, and people quit. They actually laugh at people for dying, and quit because they feel ENTITLED to winning with NO DEATHS. Not even LFR should be that. That's installing an I WIN button in the game.


Quoting this guy for emphasis. Also, people used to complain that they couldn't get gear. Now they complain that they're bored because they got their gear in a matter of 2 weeks.
A few points:

The issue in MoP is they are moving away from token gear. That was actually the good thing that helped those who didn't have time to raid constantly, were new to the game, or for guilds that needed to gear up important positions without re-clearing old content. I am for token gear - it was a right step towards helping casual / smaller guilds or for altoholics.

As far as "being awesome," that's ridiculous. There is a huge gap right now between content difficulty now, and what it once was. I agree with the poster that said there used to be more mechanics in fights - they moved away from that because it made it "too hard" for people who can't pay attention past their dps meter.

There is no reason why there can't be levels of difficulty - if BC had token gear for all those raids, and kept the harder levels of difficulty in heroics and kept raiding as it was, would have been great. That's how it should be now. LFR and normal dungeons are your "ez mode / fun" content. Heroics and normal raids are challenging content for those folks who are full geared / gemmed / pay attention to the fights. Heroic raids are for those true elites who want the extra challenge.

What worried me was the comments how they were moving MoP more towards the LK level of difficulty. Ugh?

As far as people being "better" at raiding - no. I don't see that at all. They are WORSE at raiding. And running dungeons. Not their fault really - Blizzard did away with all the neat stuff that made it challenging. In dungeons, they got rid of CC, kill priority, and everything else that made it more difficult. Now it's just a nukefest. Gather everything into a pile and nuke until dead. In raids, they got rid of trickier mechanics, and replaced them with simplistic stuff. Stuff people still screw up.. because Blizzard is making sloppy raiders with easy mechanics and LFR.

LK was pretty bad - when I ran raids, if we had one wipe.. just ONE.. I'd always have at least a couple people leave. Even if we were doing great until then. People honestly feel entitled to always win - never wipe. I fear they will go that way again in MoP.
Yeah, BC was loads of fun. Having to replace a raider and gear them up through already cleared content, only to have another player in your raid group /gquit, and the cycle repeats again.

Yep, loads of fun.


Feeder guilds ftw
Hard games are fun and a nice change of pace here and there. I'm thinking of Dark Souls as a recent example. Most people though aren't gonna pay $15 per month or $60 for a game that they have no chance of "winning". Dying 20 times per quest or having bosses that require 0 screw ups to beat isn't hard it is just tedious. Tedious game play doesn't keep customers.
05/02/2012 10:03 AMPosted by Reveries
Blizzard is unlikely to change the formula that's made them one of the most successful MMOs to date because a minority of players don't like it.


Why do people say things like this? They did change the formula... This is the change. The everyone wins mindset is not how blizzard has done wow since the start.


Well the game was started on the principle that they would make a lot of things easier than their competitors, and grew subscriptions massively as they kept going down that road. When they tried to turn it back in Cata they saw big drops in subscription.

Really wrath seemed to have the best tuning between difficulty and accessibility compared to cata and BC.
I for one believe that the attunement system was amazing. It gave time for content. You didn't reach level 80, get to do heroics instantly, and had to work through raids. Today that system has it's strength's, but it has really bad weakness's.

We blow through content too fast. Way too fast. People complain that we are stuck with Dragon Soul for 6+ months at a time but that wouldn't be the case if we had attunement. Hell I didn't even get to raid Ulduar which was considered the best raid of WotLK because when I decided to start raiding, we were already on ToC. ONE raid after Ulduar and Ulduar was already obsolete.

Now I do understand the complaint that new recruiters would have to be re-geared through the content but I'd rather be stuck with that than be stuck with no content or the same content and then complain about it.

Just my 2 cents.
Dying 20 times per quest or having bosses that require 0 screw ups to beat isn't hard it is just tedious. Tedious game play doesn't keep customers.


That depends... If you are dying because you are pulling all sorts of trash that makes sense. my lock running around dot'ing things while running as fast as possible should die not take 4 guys at the same time without issue.

Forcing someone not to screw up is difficulty.

dif·fi·cul·ty
noun /ˈdifikəltē/ 
difficulties, plural

The state or condition of being difficult

A thing that is hard to accomplish, deal with, or understand

A situation that is difficult or dangerous

You seem to think that tedious things cant give a form of difficulty and by the way you use tedious you could apply that to anything that is actually difficult.

Its difficult to stack 150 pennies but it is also tedious in fact its the tediousness that makes it so difficulty. That and stinking gravity.
for one believe that the attunement system was amazing. It gave time for content. You didn't reach level 80, get to do heroics instantly, and had to work through raids. Today that system has it's strength's, but it has really bad weakness's.

We blow through content too fast. Way too fast. People complain that we are stuck with Dragon Soul for 6+ months at a time but that wouldn't be the case if we had attunement. Hell I didn't even get to raid Ulduar which was considered the best raid of WotLK because when I decided to start raiding, we were already on ToC. ONE raid after Ulduar and Ulduar was already obsolete.

Now I do understand the complaint that new recruiters would have to be re-geared through the content but I'd rather be stuck with that than be stuck with no content or the same content and then complain about it.

Just my 2 cents.


I think what causes major issues with this is population fluctuations. Lower population servers have a harder time replacing old players and finding new ones.
Now I do understand the complaint that new recruiters would have to be re-geared through the content but I'd rather be stuck with that than be stuck with no content or the same content and then complain about it.

Just my 2 cents.


Yay running Kara for an entire expansion was fun!!!
Well the game was started on the principle that they would make a lot of things easier than their competitors, and grew subscriptions massively as they kept going down that road. When they tried to turn it back in Cata they saw big drops in subscription.


I don't know were you get your information from. I don't think players left because dungeons were difficult. They were not difficult. What made them difficult was that you were grouped with 4 other random people and those people hardly communicate. People who did and do dungeons in premade groups did and do have the near the same level of difficulty because of how the luck of the draw interacts with pre made groups.
The only thing I ever saw in BC was questing. I never got into the raids because I simply was not interested in them at the time.

Now that I am interested, no one runs that stuff anymore.
"Back in my day, we had to walk uphill in the snow both ways just to get to Orgrimmar's gate, and we only had one weapon to share in the entire raid, and we liked it!

Oh yeah, and I want to advertise another company's game here."


Fixed that for you.

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