MoP LFR Loot System

General Discussion
One of the common dead horse topics that always comes up is the problems with the current LFR loot system. And one of the common replies I see is that it will be better in MoP. But will it? What exactly changes in the new system? Do those changes actually make it better or worse? Here is my take on the new loot system.

Pros:
Individual loot rolling rather than competitive loot rolling. Basically in the new system you roll against yourself (roll against the RNG system) instead of other players. Apparently as seen by all the QQ on the forums people have a problem with rolling against others. It has become a QQ fest about who deserves things more than others. This will suppossedly change that. Of course some of you notice I said suppossedly change rather than stop. That is because people are still going to be upset that other people won (even if they cant see other people winning) when they didnt. Its pretty much guaranteed that the QQ wont stop but will simply change to something else. Personally I dont see why they simply didnt just remove the roll spam and that would accomplish the same thing and could have just been hotfixed in right away instead of waiting for MoP.

Essentially everyone autorolls need. This will help in that groups will no longer have to wait on people to roll. The funny thing here though is isnt this what people complain about in the current system? People rolling need when they dont really need anything. I guess the viewpoint is that if you are only rolling against yourself then its ok. The overall effect though is the same outcome you have today. Sometimes people that dont need anything get stuff they dont need while others that need things dont get anything. Again the only difference being is that the roll is hidden so you dont know who got what and thus you wont care anymore. And again personally I dont see why they couldnt just hotfix this in so everyone just autorolls need in the current system and remove the roll spam thus accomplishing the same thing.

Cons:
No more trading loot. I am of the belief that you should be able to do what you want with gear you win. If that means giving it to someone else then so be it. Why shouldnt friends be able to try to help gear their other friends with chars that are already geared? I know one of the dev reasons is they didnt want people getting gear faster and thus lessening the reason to run LFR. However it adds replayability to the content past just getting your own gear so it kind of evens out. The lesser geared guy runs fewer times but the higher geared guy runs more often. And having geared people in LFR helps to counter the undergeared and the slackers looking to be carried. Yes I know people feel LFR is a joke of a cakewalk but would it be so without the geared players helping?

No offspec gear drops. This part has two versions of bad. First off it has people running in crappier gear and a less polished spec in order to get the same gear he would in his better gear and more polished spec. Again the only outcome is fewer geared players and more crappy geared players in LFR which is not that good of an idea. Secondly it reduces the amount of tanks and healers in LFR. For those DPS that are capable enough in their offspec as a tank or healer this eliminates the chance for them to run as a tank or healer to help the queue if they want to get some dps upgrades. This basically is counter intuitive to the LFD system that tries to get more tanks and healers in the queue.

TL:DR Bottom line is IMHO the pros of the new system can easily be solved with a simple hiding of the loot rolls in the current system. Hell if they wanted to the devs could just tell people its the new individual rolling system and no one would know. And they could probably hotfix it in right away if they wanted to instead of waiting for MoP. In the meantime the cons far outweigh any gains the new system will bring.
Mmm OP you raise some interesting points.

1) The QQ won't stop - I agree that the QQ won't stop and that now it will just be "I hate the RNG" or "the RNG is broken fix it" - but this is all rage against Blizzard and the game itself, rather than against other players. In this way I feel it's an improvement for the population in general. I'd think a player is less likely to quit WoW over an RNG loss than over being assaulted in party chat over loot.

2) Hide all the rolls - Removing the abillity of other players to see what everyone else rolled and/or received is an idea. However, if the underlying loot system were kept in place I could easily forsee "who rolled on my item?" and "I got this item wanna trade?" and other such, which grinds the run to a halt and might cause it to disintegrate.

3) Everyone autorolls need and this is the same as what happens now - Actually, it's even simpler. If you win loot from the boss, the RNG will pick an item from the loot table that matches your spec, and give it to you. Absolutely you will still have the situation where people who don't need an item get one while a needy player gets nothing, and where a player with one item will get the same one again. The end result may be the same but the important difference is that there is no longer the opportunity for a player to roll need on an item that another player may or may not feel they need more.

4) No loot trading is a bad idea - This prevents players from attempting to sell their loot for the highest price. Allowing it would generate the mentality that you can buy your way to better gear (as if JP and VP gear aren't enough), which in turn cheapens the game and frustrates players who don't have hours to farm for gold. It might even tempt players to obtain illegal gold. I believe the concept of gearing your teammates is still very much intact when you run non-LFR raids and dungeons, as the loot rules for those are not being changed.

5) No off-spec loot is a bad idea - This is a tough one. I, for one, wouldn't want to be running end-game raids as a tank, earn a set of DPS gear, and then queue as a DPS in an end-game raid because I'd have no idea how to play my spec (even though I have all the right gear). It's no so bad to back-track a bit and start running instances in your off-spec so you "earn and learn" at the same time.

Ultimately we'll have to wait and see how this all plays out, but from my perspective I think these new LFR rules are a giant step in the right direction.
I think the new MoP system finally removes the conceit that we have as players that the gear is "ours".

It's all Blizzards, they just lend it to us to use. Some of us complained that other people get to play with that toy, and how dare they even get that toy again when they "already have it" and "don't need it", so now, Blizzard gives them out and won't let us share/trade.

Because it's Blizzards to begin with and they will do as they must to keep more of us paying them money.

I really wish they'd release this in the new LFR (hell, allow LFR to drop green MoP loot as incentive) so we get more people testing it.
the concerns over no off-spec gear is overblown in my opinion... you can still win tier tokens which you can use to purchase gear for any spec you want. Getting 4 tier token pieces for your off-spec should be able to help you gear up regardless of what spec you get the tokens with.
While certainly the QQ won't stop, the poisonous atmosphere created because someone rolled higher than you will stop, and people will just cry about rng. That's a reasonable trade.

I hope rolls are hidden, for no other reason than the spammy nature of rolling currently. At the end of the day, all that should matter is whether I win or lose. I don't have an opinion either way on whether or not I should see what the other people won. I don't see a very good reason for it, but no strong reason to object either.

I think offspec is something they will eventually permit, if you want it. It doesn't affect anyone else, so why not. I do agree with blizzard's no offspec at first stance though, it seems reasonable to start small, and expand the systems as time goes on. Offspec is certainly not something you always want on, since there's no player interaction in the loot process.

Even something simple like winning an item is only a boss-specific box which doesn't produce an item until I open it, giving me opportunity to be in the right spec before I open it. Like i said, I don't think that should necessarily be possible on release but down the road, I think some solution to offspec would be nice -- until then, queueing as your offspec isn't the end of the world.
1. I think that the hiding of the rolls is enough though to misdirect that QQ to the RNG instead of the player. The point being this could be done right away in a hotfix instead of revamping the whole system. If the sole purpose is to give the impression that the RNG is to blame and not another player this would suffice.

2. With hiding the loot rolls and autoneed there would also not be a need to show the loot either. Thus if no one knows what dropped or who rolled and won it would have the same effect as changing to the new system. Once again can be done in a hotfix rather than waiting to revamp the whole system.

3. The current system does the same thing. The only difference is it chooses the loot first then sees who won rather than seeing who won then seeing what the loot is. Either way the loot will be of the proper spec. And hiding the rolls and loot as per 1 and 2 above removes the whole I need it more QQ.

4. I guess I should clarify that the loot is still BoP but tradable only within the current raid. Being LFR you cannot trade for gold. The guild running non-LFR is not always an option for small guilds or even for everyone in a big guild as there are only so many spots in a guilds raid teams.

5. Most that use offspec do so infrequently but are good enough to get buy for a fight or two they are needed. Its not like a raid would ask you to switch if you were incompetent. You dont really need to practice in LFR.

Anyway just some thoughts on your thoughts.
1. I think that the hiding of the rolls is enough though to misdirect that QQ to the RNG instead of the player. The point being this could be done right away in a hotfix instead of revamping the whole system. If the sole purpose is to give the impression that the RNG is to blame and not another player this would suffice.

2. With hiding the loot rolls and autoneed there would also not be a need to show the loot either. Thus if no one knows what dropped or who rolled and won it would have the same effect as changing to the new system. Once again can be done in a hotfix rather than waiting to revamp the whole system.

3. The current system does the same thing. The only difference is it chooses the loot first then sees who won rather than seeing who won then seeing what the loot is. Either way the loot will be of the proper spec. And hiding the rolls and loot as per 1 and 2 above removes the whole I need it more QQ.

4. I guess I should clarify that the loot is still BoP but tradable only within the current raid. Being LFR you cannot trade for gold. The guild running non-LFR is not always an option for small guilds or even for everyone in a big guild as there are only so many spots in a guilds raid teams.

5. Most that use offspec do so infrequently but are good enough to get buy for a fight or two they are needed. Its not like a raid would ask you to switch if you were incompetent. You dont really need to practice in LFR.

Anyway just some thoughts on your thoughts.


Ah! Good discussion!

1, 2, and 3) I can't comment on Blizzard's ability to hotfix things, not being a programmer, but I'd rather they work full-tilt on MoP at this point. Hiding everything is a good idea - it cuts down on clutter and reduces bad feelings. However, if loot is still tradeable in any way shape or form, you will have players complaining that "someone" rolled on "their" item, and other players attempting to trade an item they won and don't need. Both of these things can lead to bad player experiences which is what Blizzard is trying to avoid.

I've accidentally rolled on tokens that I didn't need and happily given them away when I realized my mistake (the recipients were very happy). I've been on the other side of that same equation. The fact that this can be all friendly doesn't discount the fact that the potential exists for bad experiences.

4) Er... isn't gold tradeable to members from the same server in an LFR? I forget - either way you are completely right in that the "gear for gold" syndome isn't so bad as I at first believed.

5) Holy raised a good point that armor tokens can be used to buy off-spec items, and of course JP and VP can be used for jewelry and such - there's a big start to your off-spec set! With that you can easily queue as your off-spec and roll for loot, so in light of this I don't think we'll miss not being able to get off-spec loot from LFR.

1, 2, and 3) I can't comment on Blizzard's ability to hotfix things, not being a programmer, but I'd rather they work full-tilt on MoP at this point. Hiding everything is a good idea - it cuts down on clutter and reduces bad feelings. However, if loot is still tradeable in any way shape or form, you will have players complaining that "someone" rolled on "their" item, and other players attempting to trade an item they won and don't need. Both of these things can lead to bad player experiences which is what Blizzard is trying to avoid.


It's not tradeable.


5) Holy raised a good point that armor tokens can be used to buy off-spec items, and of course JP and VP can be used for jewelry and such


VP gets you item upgrades, not gear. Unknown how they will handle JP at this point, but gear for pve currency may be sort of dead.
05/08/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Duckofdeath
Individual loot rolling rather than competitive loot rolling. Basically in the new system you roll against yourself (roll against the RNG system) instead of other players. Apparently as seen by all the QQ on the forums people have a problem with rolling against others. It has become a QQ fest about who deserves things more than others. This will suppossedly change that. Of course some of you notice I said suppossedly change rather than stop. That is because people are still going to be upset that other people won (even if they cant see other people winning) when they didnt. Its pretty much guaranteed that the QQ wont stop but will simply change to something else. Personally I dont see why they simply didnt just remove the roll spam and that would accomplish the same thing and could have just been hotfixed in right away instead of waiting for MoP.


Of course people are going to continue to be upset someone else won something. That is because they think they are entitled little snow flakes and deserve to win something every time. That will not change. The only way that would change would be if EVERYONE won something, and since when has that ever been the case? You win some, you lose some. Get over it. Oh and guess what? You can turn that roll spam off yourself. They don't need to "remove" it just because people get their panties in a bunch because someone else won "their" loot.

05/08/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Duckofdeath
No more trading loot. I am of the belief that you should be able to do what you want with gear you win. If that means giving it to someone else then so be it. Why shouldnt friends be able to try to help gear their other friends with chars that are already geared? I know one of the dev reasons is they didnt want people getting gear faster and thus lessening the reason to run LFR. However it adds replayability to the content past just getting your own gear so it kind of evens out. The lesser geared guy runs fewer times but the higher geared guy runs more often. And having geared people in LFR helps to counter the undergeared and the slackers looking to be carried. Yes I know people feel LFR is a joke of a cakewalk but would it be so without the geared players helping?


Loot doesnt need to be traded, IMO. You can do what you want with it. Equip it, DE it, sell it. Why do you need to trade it? You are only going to be winning gear that YOU can use, not anyone else. So you don't need to trade it unless you have a friend that is the exact same class/spec as you, and if so then they can run LFR themselves and get loot.

05/08/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Duckofdeath
No offspec gear drops. This part has two versions of bad. First off it has people running in crappier gear and a less polished spec in order to get the same gear he would in his better gear and more polished spec. Again the only outcome is fewer geared players and more crappy geared players in LFR which is not that good of an idea. Secondly it reduces the amount of tanks and healers in LFR. For those DPS that are capable enough in their offspec as a tank or healer this eliminates the chance for them to run as a tank or healer to help the queue if they want to get some dps upgrades. This basically is counter intuitive to the LFD system that tries to get more tanks and healers in the queue.


I'm one of the people that think if you want offspec gear, then run LFR or dungeons as your off spec. I'm one of the few, apparently, that did that when I changed my prot pally to holy. I started from scratch in greens from the AH, and worked my way up.

1, 2, and 3) I can't comment on Blizzard's ability to hotfix things, not being a programmer, but I'd rather they work full-tilt on MoP at this point. Hiding everything is a good idea - it cuts down on clutter and reduces bad feelings. However, if loot is still tradeable in any way shape or form, you will have players complaining that "someone" rolled on "their" item, and other players attempting to trade an item they won and don't need. Both of these things can lead to bad player experiences which is what Blizzard is trying to avoid.


It's not tradeable.


5) Holy raised a good point that armor tokens can be used to buy off-spec items, and of course JP and VP can be used for jewelry and such


VP gets you item upgrades, not gear. Unknown how they will handle JP at this point, but gear for pve currency may be sort of dead.


Under the current model of LFR, you are able to trade loot amongst players while still in the instance. In MoP, this functionality is being removed. I think it's a change for the better, for reasons stated above.

We'll have to wait and see how they'll handle PvE currency in MoP. I came in late in Cata, at the point where high-level gear was available for JP and VP as a way to get new players (me) up to end-game content whilst skipping raid tiers. In retrospect, I think I'd feel more accomplished if I'd actually had to work through those tiers, so maybe I won't miss "PvE currency for gear" very much. Then again, the HoT dungeons allowed you to skip raid tiers as well... ah, so much to balance...

We'll have to wait and see how they'll handle PvE currency in MoP. I came in late in Cata, at the point where high-level gear was available for JP and VP as a way to get new players (me) up to end-game content whilst skipping raid tiers. In retrospect, I think I'd feel more accomplished if I'd actually had to work through those tiers, so maybe I won't miss "PvE currency for gear" very much. Then again, the HoT dungeons allowed you to skip raid tiers as well... ah, so much to balance...


Allowing someone to get prepared for current tier as a solo experience is something that's important to maintain. How that solo experience works out is of course something they can tweak. I think the current model of you do heroics, you get gear, and that gear is enough for current content raiding (which you can upgrade via currency ilvl upgrades).

If I had to guess, I'd say that's the nothing to current content path they have in mind, but who knows. That does sort of depend on a 5m accompanying every new raid zone, but that wasn't much of a problem in cata, since we had 2 additional tiers of heroics to go with our 2 additional tiers of raids (leaving aside how dissatisfied players were, as a whole, with the troll heroics).
05/08/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Ripshred
3) Everyone autorolls need and this is the same as what happens now - Actually, it's even simpler. If you win loot from the boss, the RNG will pick an item from the loot table that matches your spec, and give it to you. Absolutely you will still have the situation where people who don't need an item get one while a needy player gets nothing, and where a player with one item will get the same one again. The end result may be the same but the important difference is that there is no longer the opportunity for a player to roll need on an item that another player may or may not feel they need more.
Do we know whether or not it will possibly give you something you already have? Or will it give you something that you actually need or atleast can use? Ths is fairly important.
05/08/2012 02:52 PMPosted by Bartello
Do we know whether or not it will possibly give you something you already have? Or will it give you something that you actually need or atleast can use? Ths is fairly important.


Yes, and it is possible to get something you have. The goal is not to gear you up faster, the goal is to eliminate the feeling that another player "stole" your gear. If you are selected to win an item, it'll be a random item from the boss amongst the items flagged for your spec.
05/08/2012 02:54 PMPosted by Mescyntoo
Do we know whether or not it will possibly give you something you already have? Or will it give you something that you actually need or atleast can use? Ths is fairly important.


Yes, and it is possible to get something you have. The goal is not to gear you up faster, the goal is to eliminate the feeling that another player "stole" your gear. If you are selected to win an item, it'll be a random item from the boss amongst the items flagged for your spec.
I understand. But this will still leave people crying about Balto winning the dps axe for the 4th time while Nerdrager is still using his quest reward blue.

Yes, it won't be Balto's fautl for rolling on it, so Nerdragers shouldn't get mad at Balto, but Nerdrager is still gonna rage. Know what I mean?

But I'm glad the pressure is off Balto now.
5) No off-spec loot is a bad idea - This is a tough one. I, for one, wouldn't want to be running end-game raids as a tank, earn a set of DPS gear, and then queue as a DPS in an end-game raid because I'd have no idea how to play my spec (even though I have all the right gear). It's no so bad to back-track a bit and start running instances in your off-spec so you "earn and learn" at the same time.


The problem though, is we don't tolerate people who actually need gear from heroics doing heroics. As the general population becomes more geared, the guy in his 5 man set has a higher risk of being kicked from groups if they wipe because of "kick the lowest DPS".

In theory, it's a good idea. But in reality, Blizzard just doesn't play the same game that the rest of us do. When it comes to how we act as a community, Blizzard wins for being the company that's the most out of touch with their players.
I understand. But this will still leave people crying about Balto winning the dps axe for the 4th time while Nerdrager is still using his quest reward blue.

Yes, it won't be Balto's fautl for rolling on it, so Nerdragers shouldn't get mad at Balto, but Nerdrager is still gonna rage. Know what I mean?

But I'm glad the pressure is off Balto now.


Well, people are going to complain about something. People already complain about rng in normal and heroic mode raids, adding lfr to the list, I don't think it's really something to be worried about.

They'll probably (presuming the winners are known) start saying things like lowest dps always wins, etc -- sort of like we see already, with the current system. A goal of stopping all loot complaints in lfr is sort of a fool's errand, and I don't think that's possible to do.

I do agree, though, that people will complain when they don't win items, particularly after (what they feel is) a significant period of time.

The problem though, is we don't tolerate people who actually need gear from heroics doing heroics. As the general population becomes more geared, the guy in his 5 man set has a higher risk of being kicked from groups if they wipe because of "kick the lowest DPS".


There's never much risk of me rolling into lfr with less a bit less than 378 gear and doing dps which the community finds acceptable, even today after a fairly significant amount of time. It's just not a big deal.
Step 1. Make loot won in LFR sellable only in the LFR instance.

Step 2. Sold items then appear on a different vendor and can be bought for an appropriate price by those with the correct spec.

Step 3. People QQ because someone else got there firs... Well crud, at first I thought it was an awesome idea.
Blizzard's taking a conservative approach to it. Since the players have proven that they can't be trusted to be mature when it comes to handling loot in raids, we're now just going to be maybe handed a piece of gear and told 'have fun'.

Obviously people are going to be unhappy about it, but they only have themselves to blame in the first place. If the average player were a decent person instead of a rabid loot-crazed maniac and/or a giant douchebag, we'd not be seeing a change to the system.
First of all, not everybody rolls "need" on everything. I know that some people do, but....

I have much better ways to get gold than vendoring gear someone else can use. If all I can do with a piece is vendor it, I'm not hitting "need".

I'm not alone in this. The more people like me that are in your raid, the more likely the people who actually need the gear are to actually get it.

As such, the new system, assuming it generates the same amount of loot, will be less beneficial (from a gear progression standpoint), because it will assign loot randomly. Of course, Blizzard can tune the numbers to fix this. For instance, instead of a 15% chance of winning something (like we have now), they could bump it up to 20% or even 25%.

Second of all, the off-spec thing actually is an issue for me. If I have a spec that needs gear, I don't want to go in that spec. I'd like to be able to click some radio button that selects which spec I want loot for, which might not be the same as the spec I'm currently using. However, that does add complexity to the game, which isn't a good thing. Tier tokens do help some.

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