Rogue PvP spec in Mop.

Rogue
Im new to wow believe it or not, a buddy got me to do RAF and I rolled a rogue because I love melee/stealth classes, what I'm wondering though is what do you experienced rogues think the viable pvp spec will be? I love sub so far, but from what I read on the beta forums its getting overnerfed to almost worthless. I have seen a few vids of assassination builds being better? I don't want to gimp myself by running sub if its going to be that bad, thanks.
05/14/2012 02:32 PMPosted by Sneakyguy
I love sub so far, but from what I read on the beta forums its getting overnerfed to almost worthless. I have seen a few vids of assassination builds being better? I don't want to gimp myself by running sub if its going to be that bad, thanks.


My first thought on all these posts is:

Play what is fun to you and damn everyone else.

My second thought on all these posts is:

Beta is beta and things change on a whim, wont be clear till closer to launch.

My third thought on all these posts is:

Currently assassination likely holds the edge...but it seems all 3 specs are easily kited by classes like hunters or ice mages.

My fourth thought on all these posts is:

Bacon

My fifth though on all these posts is:

Why am I still writing here?

My sixth thought on all these posts is:

Should I make the effort to scroll back up and correct my mispelling of thought in the previous thought?

My seventh thought on all these posts is:

No

My fourth thought on all these posts is:

Bacon


Words of the wise imo.
05/14/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Timat
Currently assassination likely holds the edge...but it seems all 3 specs are easily kited by classes like hunters or ice mages.


Wrong

Sub is still the best PvP spec out of the three.
Sub has been nerfed so much in MoP it will be worse than Season 5 WotLK Sub. In other words, sub will not be viable in PVP, especially after a damage pass. Too many mechanics to restrict target switching. Sub Rogues are not a tunnel spec and their DPS cool down Shadow dance isn't about that.


The class in general has been nerfed not just sub.

Assas has no burst and has too much ramp up time.

Instead of trying to tell me I dont know what i am talking about maybe you should learn more about PvP

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Emerald%20Dream/Mafic/simple
The class in general has been nerfed not just sub.

Assas has no burst and has too much ramp up time.

Instead of trying to tell me I dont know what i am talking about maybe you should learn more about PvP



LeSigh, maybe before thinking your king of the class you should learn more about the class.
because sub IS getting the biggest nerf out of all the pvp specs for rogues in MoP and will most likely be pushed into the shadows just like it was in almost all of Cata until it gots it's buff...
OH and...........
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackwater-raiders/Robotfood/simple
05/16/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Sekthar
Despite your nerd rage yeah you don't know what you are talking about.


Im not "nerd raging"

And yes I do know more than two 1500 rogues.

05/16/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Sekthar
You started playing in season six,


My rogue. I was around all of Wrath.

05/16/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Sekthar
so you were not around for season five or the previous seasons.


Where Sub was king in BC? Wrath had both but a majority went with mutilate cause of how dumbed down it is?

And even being correct this has nothing to do with anything.

LeSigh, maybe before thinking your king of the class you should learn more about the class.
because sub IS getting the biggest nerf out of all the pvp specs for rogues in MoP and will most likely be pushed into the shadows just like it was in almost all of Cata until it gots it's buff...
OH and...........


I think a 2400 exp rogue knows more about the class then 2 1500 rogues. Even with the HUGE nerf Sub is taking it will still be better as it is the only spec with a burst CD. Assas is a PvE spec
05/16/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Edit
Why must people question Snozy the Rogue forum's PvP wizard?

Probably because he barely achieved Rival one time during S9 when titles meant nothing because of all the MMR exploiting, and has never gotten anything higher than Challenger during any other season.
Personally, I think you all are all nerd raging and I only made it down the first half of page 1. First I must say, I would own your wee little combat rogue, and 2, both of you have low ratings along with you guys only doing 2v2 which is, in my opinion, worthless as far as bragging rights are concerned. The third thing is, if you started playing during WOTLK then you need to shut your mouths because you guys are about 4 years behind the times of how things used to be for rogues. When Wrath came out, everything sucked at first, just like when Cata first came out. we all had to adjust to new playing styles. That is the whole point in Blizz making these horrendous changes to the mechanics of the class. They are tired of all the cookie cutter specs and no, it is more or less, a broader area for people to play different playing styles. A Rogue is a class in itself, not meant to be a one style fits all kind of class, but that is all it has become. Most classes pre-MOP can predict what a rogues next move will be and be able to anticipate it.
Rogues have had to bite and claw for everything they have gotten through out the history of WOW ever since it's beginning back in 2004. and when we did get a little everyone whined and complained because we were winning in a fight or 2.
I myself have been playing my rogue since 2005 and it is my one and only toon that I really enjoy playing. I say let the changes happened, it will decide who can adapt or who will start playing there face roll Pally or DK because they can't handle the skill needed to play a rogue anymore.
If you are going to say something that is helpful, show the facts to back it up, like say, a video of someone using the different specs. Just a thought
i honestly think a high ranking means nothing for knowledge of FUTURE rogue mechanics.

people theory craft all the time, and often find there theorycrafting useless.

But take a look at what all specs have vs what each spec has.

assassination will obviously have higher sustained damage with 20% higher procrate on poisons along with the buff to poisons in mop and a nice execute phase, and will scale well with crit thru seal fate on single target at least. they do have a burst cd with vendetta, tho might not be as impressive as shadow dance.

sub still has 30% more agility, hemo got nerfed so its pretty much just a bleed setup again, back to backstab which has what appears better damage per energy then mut but less cp generation.

find weakness off of garrote/ambush/cheapshot...this is important, and provides imo better damage thru armor possibly then assassination.

premed is nice in pvp..lot of flexibility there, even recuping while stealthed is helpful.

HaT scales with your group while seal fate scales with you

sanguinary vein is buffed to 25%

energy regen for sub is tied to SnD which is a better dps Cd for pvp then rupture (for assassination)

the two scaling masteries, increased poison damage vs increased damage on opener...again its a sustained vs burst.

shadow dance...now reduces ambush cost by 20 energy (so it COSTS 20 energy), even without the added crit % thats a cheap and relatively hard hitting move.

assassination gets 20% increased damage baseline

envenom obviously ignores armor and allows a short duration of passive burst

venomous wounds requires rupture/garrote

evs refreshes slice n dice to bad its not including envenom and maybe rupture/garrote instead of SnD considerings its where the energy regen is

blindside is a RNG mechanic for random burst

so what do we get form all this?

assassination has easier rotation, high passive damage, more if its damge bypasses armor naturally thru increased poison damage, increased poison procrate, and envenom.

however

mutiliate is very expensive and its main CP builder, there is no passive increase to crit % and beginning of mop crit % will be somewhat low, leaving you oftentimes stuck at 4CP and little energy

subtlety has a slightly higher increase to damage (sang vein) but its not passive, requires setup, it has find weakness..which is great, but again requires setup while assassinations poisons is base. subtleties energy regen is also easier to set up as its attached to a good dps Cd SnD

they have majorly the same defenses

majorly same mobility (just depends on talents)

however

as assassination you can double up on poison damage for deadly+wounding and take deadly brew for free crippling, with crippling being only 50% the 20% higher procrate can be nic,e. obviously sub can take this too, but dirty tricks is a very attractive option, and sub wont see as high of a dps increase by doubling poison as assssination would.

higher sustained, more clunky energy regen
vs
higher burst, but lower sustained, with easier appliable energy regen

and imo, shadow dance>vendetta for the utility and shorter CD

unless subs damage is truly pathetic by comparison i expect it to edge out

edit: and if you look at what they both have access too, id expect prep to edge out BoS at the beginning, this is due to energy starvation and the fact that prep resets both cloak and evasion now.

combo of vanish/cloak breaks cc effects and allows reliable way to close a gap, even if it isnt instant or anything. 10 seconds of cloak, 30 of evasion? hellz ya, not to mention the vanish reset. too good not to get imo

if shuriken toss applies poisons i expect that to be taken also outside of times that require heavy switching.
Sub will continue to be the best pvp spec imo due to:
-how fast it builds combo points, how low its pt builders cost(and those builders do more damage than SS/mut anyway..),
-30% bonus agility, this is such a ridiculous bonus compared to assass or combats
-Burst. Find weakness and shadowdance are still way better than adrenalin rush or anything assass has(lol no cold blood or overkill, GG blizz).

Im not up to date on everything that has changed with rogue attacks etc. For instance I just read that hemo hits for a lot less now. But based on what ive read/heard, sub still has the edge, mostly due to how much harder its specials hit compared to the other two trees, and how much faster it builds combo pts(this means more slice uptime, easier to keep recup up when needed, easier to keep rupture up, more evises etc).

I really want combat to be viable because I love that tree, but until they change bandits guile, make sinister strike not hit like a wet noodle, or give it some kind of armor pen, I doubt it will be useful at all. (they also removed pretty much every pvp talent from combat tree like imp kick, blade twisting, imp gouge, imp sprint).

Assass might be viable due to tunneling with sustained damage like in wotlk. However from what Ive heard, envenom isnt as beast as it used to be, mutilate still hits for crap. so that plus really slow pt building tells me its not going to work well.
STX the problem is they put so much RNG in assassination and combat without as much control.

even if subs passive damage was substantially weaker then the other two, its ability for controlled burst is higher, and having utility with that burst.

damage is NOT finalized however, so basing our damage off anything right now is fool hardy.

that being said im pretty sure the change to hemo was intentional to force sub to use backstab as its main CP generator and hemo just for sang vein.

other things ive noticed

kick is on a 15 second cd (along with all spell interrupts)

shiv now has a 10 second cd, but if used, applies a more powerful version of our poisons (im thinking this is where we are going to get our 70% crippling slow from possibly)

so i can see depending on the class our openers being

cheapshot/garrote>hemo/backstab>recoup(if needed)/SnD>SHIV? (earlier if the target has a way to get away faster like mages)/backstabsssss and eviscerates

shiv is looking to incorporate itself into our pvp priority basically

this is also why i think shadow focus will be the go to for pvp, saving 40+ energy on your opener is huge.

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