Now that Exodar HAS been repaired~~~seriously

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they are though because they never warned the vicims of the intergalactic planet killing army that they knew was following them. they then didnt bring the natives of the planet they knew they doomed with them when they ran.

a simple warning of the danger they put others in against the other's will could have saved countless lives.

if i know an arsonist is trying to kill me, when i move into a new appartment building ill make damn sure to tell them and instal some fire alarms.... the draenei kept their mouths shut and let others suffer for them then acted hollier than thou.


Would they have believed them?

Durotan nearly killed Velen on the spot when he suggested that Oshu'gun was anything OTHER than a sacred orcish site.

If good-hearted, honorable Durotan, who had spent time with the Draenei before refused to believe him, what makes you think the more... lets say 'hot-headed' leaders would?

Not to mention there was no actual 'invasion'. It was all Gul'dan manipulating the orcs into using the demon blood.
they are though because they never warned the vicims of the intergalactic planet killing army that they knew was following them. they then didnt bring the natives of the planet they knew they doomed with them when they ran.


How messed up would the Orcs have been if they were told their neighbors were space aliens from beyond the stars that were running away from an unstoppable army of demons?

The Orcs were shamanistic. There's no way the Draenei could have easily just told them the truth without messing with their spiritual and cultural development.

And even if the Draenei did it anyways, the Orcs weren't unified. They were a scattered race. Think of the logistics of how many Draenei messengers would have to be sent out, and survived the meeting with the Orcs.

And even then, the Draenei would become compelled to share technology and resources with the Orcs, because they'd have started real diplomatic relations by blowing their cover. And if they didn't, the Orcs would have likely become aggressive and tried taking it.

But even if you get past all that, there's the fact that I think the Draenei actually may have told the Orcs something about demons at some point. Because it was mentioned in Rise of the Horde that the Orcs had an ancient name for Demons. So the Draenei probably did tell them something--but when you're dealing with a race of primitive screwheads living in a tribal society they don't tend to do that well in keeping historic records. No, all the Orcs really had were oral traditions.
Sometimes I feel it is pointless to discuss this topic.
05/16/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Aeluron
Sometimes I feel it is pointless to discuss this topic.


Then... don't.
05/16/2012 01:14 PMPosted by Dorthar
Sometimes I feel it is pointless to discuss this topic.


Then... don't.


Too bad. I will continue even if it makes me want to punt gnomes ^_^!
05/16/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Aeluron
Too bad. I will continue even if it makes me want to punt gnomes ^_^!


Let's be real here, you're too much of a boy scout to even be making that kind of joke.

*So sayeth Wolverine to Captain America*
05/16/2012 12:43 PMPosted by Drailen
No, Garrosh kept the Draenei as enemies when he lead the Mag'har.


As part of an on-going war or for some other reason?

You don't seem to be realizing that most of the Orcs are dead and there's a new generation around now.


When your entire race down to the last man, woman, and child is responsible for multiple wars on innocent and unsuspecting peoples, personal responsiblity or lack-there-of goes out the window. Besides, the Orcs started the war because they believed their ancestors were telling them to kill the Draenei. And Garrosh was in an honorless funk because he believed his dad was a scumbag that damned their entire race.

If there's to be consistency, the Orcs have to assume responsilbility for what their parents did because their parents and ancestors matter to them. Not accepting responsiblity is the same as supporting what their parents did.

The current generation of Orcs have done a lot to make up for the sins of their parents. They've done a lot to damn themselves too, sure, but they've also saved the world a few times.


They haven't done anything for the Alliance. They haven't sought forgiveness. They haven't made ammends. They haven't gone out of their way to aid the Alliance beyond fighting a mutual enemy. They haven't tried to mend their ways beyond forsaking demon juice.

There's absolutely no reason why the Alliance should consider the Orcs as anything other than what they've always been and there's no reason why the Alliance should forgive or forget. At least, nothing beyond "The world is doomed if you don't help the Orc!" which is like having a needle shoved into your eye since the Orc raised half your country and destroyed your ability to save the world without him.

You seem to have forgotten the entire Shattered Sun Offensive. Draenei and Blood Elves died there. You can't just say the Draenei did all the world because of Velen stepping in at the end.


What did the Blood Elves do for the Draenei? Say sorry to their glorified hood ornamanets (and that was just one small group of Blood Elves that borderline outcasts)? Fighting beside someone =/= making up for past crimes. Especially if you really, REALLY enjoy fighting.
Let's be real here, you're too much of a boy scout to even be making that kind of joke.


True, I just use that as an excuse when I get angry. I'm more of a White Knight then a Boy scout though.

As part of an on-going war or for some other reason?


Most likely because of the already going on Orc v.s Draenei tension for no reason. Though it's possible he doesn't know that the Orcs got f'd up by Kil'Jaeden.

When your entire race down to the last man, woman, and child is responsible for multiple wars on innocent and unsuspecting peoples, personal responsiblity or lack-there-of goes out the window. Besides, the Orcs started the war because they believed their ancestors were telling them to kill the Draenei. And Garrosh was in an honorless funk because he believed his dad was a scumbag that damned their entire race.


Some of the Orcs HAVE attempted to atone for their past deeds. The thing is the blood lust is barely there anymore thanks to the Burning Legion which the Alliance has any idea some great Demon Lord used the Orcs as their Hands of War to invade Azeroth. The only people that know that are dead except maybe Velen. Garrosh has a lot of his father's personality in home but with the traditional Orc mindset which needs to be changed. It's something they need to witness, they need to learn the hard way if things keep going.

They haven't done anything for the Alliance. They haven't sought forgiveness. They haven't made ammends. They haven't gone out of their way to aid the Alliance beyond fighting a mutual enemy. They haven't tried to mend their ways beyond forsaking demon juice.


Because once again the way Orcs act and think is generally wrong except maybe the Frostwolf clan and maybe Thrall. Still, they don't even want to help them because some of them feel like they want to kill them. Us however feel we aren't going to take their crap anymore.

There's absolutely no reason why the Alliance should consider the Orcs as anything other than what they've always been and there's no reason why the Alliance should forgive or forget. At least, nothing beyond "The world is doomed if you don't help the Orc!" which is like having a needle shoved into your eye since the Orc raised half your country and destroyed your ability to save the world without him.


Maybe from a character's perspective perhaps not but from a reader's view we should forgive them.
05/16/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Aeluron
Maybe from a character's perspective perhaps not but from a reader's view we should forgive them.


Neutrality is boring.
05/16/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Dorthar
Maybe from a character's perspective perhaps not but from a reader's view we should forgive them.


Neutrality is boring.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ
05/16/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Aeluron
Maybe from a character's perspective perhaps not but from a reader's view we should forgive them.


From a reader's view, I see the Orcs as dotted on and favored by the writers. They should be resented and hated for what they've done and refused to do, but hardly anyone does. In fact, the most visible and vocal Alliance figures attest to the Orcs' redemption, with the exception of Varian who is probably going to be as toothless as the rest of them when he actually does something again.
05/16/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Noitora


Neutrality is boring.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ


Best part of that video:

48,019 likes; 48,019 dislikes
From a reader's view, I see the Orcs as dotted on and favored by the writers. They should be resented and hated for what they've done and refused to do, but hardly anyone does. In fact, the most visible and vocal Alliance figures attest to the Orcs' redemption, with the exception of Varian who is probably going to be as toothless as the rest of them when he actually does something again.


Oh, don't worry. Varian hates the Horde now, but, like the rest of us, he's going to learn what an awful person he is for having the sheer BALLs to dislike the Horde. I mean, the nerve of that guy, seriously.
05/16/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
As part of an on-going war or for some other reason?


They just didn't like each other. In Hellfire it shows a Draenei trying to resolve the issues, but he ends up being killed by a Fel Orc assassin after the Mag'har kick him out.



When your entire race down to the last man, woman, and child is responsible for multiple wars on innocent and unsuspecting peoples, personal responsiblity or lack-there-of goes out the window. Besides, the Orcs started the war because they believed their ancestors were telling them to kill the Draenei. And Garrosh was in an honorless funk because he believed his dad was a scumbag that damned their entire race.

If there's to be consistency, the Orcs have to assume responsilbility for what their parents did because their parents and ancestors matter to them. Not accepting responsiblity is the same as supporting what their parents did.


The problem with this logic is that the victims of the war are going to say the new Orc generation have to atone more than they possibly can for the sins of their parents.

At some point the Orcs have to say "screw it" and start having some pride again. And that happened....when Garrosh became the Warchief.



They haven't done anything for the Alliance. They haven't sought forgiveness. They haven't made ammends. They haven't gone out of their way to aid the Alliance beyond fighting a mutual enemy. They haven't tried to mend their ways beyond forsaking demon juice.


Because the Alliance doesn't want or need anything from the Orcs. But the world? Saving the world saves the Alliance. It counts.



05/16/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
There's absolutely no reason why the Alliance should consider the Orcs as anything other than what they've always been and there's no reason why the Alliance should forgive or forget.


That sounds like the logic of someone who likes to uselessly cling on to hate. It ain't worth it.



What did the Blood Elves do for the Draenei? Say sorry to their glorified hood ornamanets (and that was just one small group of Blood Elves that borderline outcasts)? Fighting beside someone =/= making up for past crimes. Especially if you really, REALLY enjoy fighting.


It wasn't about making up for past crimes. It was about changing course and proving once and for all that they truly mean to make things better. And dying for it.
From a reader's view, I see the Orcs as dotted on and favored by the writers. They should be resented and hated for what they've done and refused to do, but hardly anyone does. In fact, the most visible and vocal Alliance figures attest to the Orcs' redemption, with the exception of Varian who is probably going to be as toothless as the rest of them when he actually does something again.


Some of you lore fans seem to live under the assumption that anger and hate plays a larger role in decisions associated with war than it actually does.

This is Warcraft. It is based on medieval war in a fantasy setting. Leaders don't view war the same way we do.

You have to relate Warcraft's war to Europe's history to get a better understanding of the mentality here.
Some of you lore fans seem to live under the assumption that anger and hate plays a larger role in decisions associated with war than it actually does.

This is Warcraft. It is based on medieval war in a fantasy setting. Leaders don't view war the same way we do.

You have to relate Warcraft's war to Europe's history to get a better understanding of the mentality here.


From the perspective of the leaders, I can understand that they wouldn't want to waste lives and resources fighting an avoidable war that would not easily be won. The fact that the Horde are strong and formidable is the only reason why the Alliance hasn't ran them down and trampled them. It's not because the Horde don't deserve to be crushed and scattered, it's not because they've had a change of heart, it's not because they too fought the latest Evil Of Our Time. It'd just take too much effort on the part of a war weary Alliance to deal with the Horde.

The Horde have given practical reasons to wage war with them. I don't need to hate them to want to fight them and most of the Alliance NPCs encountered in game that are engaged to fight the Horde are this way. Hawthorne was an especially good example of an Alliance commander since he was willing to use effective tactics even if he found them distasteful, but he also understood that they'd need to win the peace after winning the war.

What's more, even if hating the Horde isn't a good reason to fight them, not allying with them because they're hated IS a good reason. There's plenty of reasons to hate them, to not trust them, to resent and dispease being asociated with them, reasons that the Horde have never addressed.

The problem with this logic is that the victims of the war are going to say the new Orc generation have to atone more than they possibly can for the sins of their parents.

At some point the Orcs have to say "screw it" and start having some pride again. And that happened....when Garrosh became the Warchief.


The Orcs never tried to atone. Not even a little bit. At best, they tried to trade and negotiate, but they really didn't like doing it.

Because the Alliance doesn't want or need anything from the Orcs. But the world? Saving the world saves the Alliance. It counts.


The Alliance sure could use the Horde not stabbing them in the back at every oppurtunity.

That sounds like the logic of someone who likes to uselessly cling on to hate. It ain't worth it.


You're dodging the point. The Orcs haven't done anything, none of the Horde have.

It wasn't about making up for past crimes. It was about changing course and proving once and for all that they truly mean to make things better. And dying for it.


Better for themselves you mean. Again, not liking demons =/= making ammends for past wrongs. Redemption doesn't come about by killing a giant demon in a testosterone fueled rage. Being a big damn hero for one singular moment doesn't make up for single damn thing.
Probably because if the Orcs saved a member of the Alliance from a devastating crisis they still wouldn't be redeemed. Some of the Alliance and posters will never find redemption for the Orcs even if Blizzard puts a well decent reason to.
05/17/2012 04:35 PMPosted by Aeluron
Some of the Alliance and posters will never find redemption for the Orcs even if Blizzard puts a well decent reason to.


I'd prefer it if the Horde and Alliance remained enemies.

The game is the most fun when the two factions hate eachother.
05/17/2012 04:35 PMPosted by Aeluron
Probably because if the Orcs saved a member of the Alliance from a devastating crisis they still wouldn't be redeemed. Some of the Alliance and posters will never find redemption for the Orcs even if Blizzard puts a well decent reason to.


Any scenario where the Orcs get to be heroes is one I would hate. They thrive on conflict and personal glory and any more of that is just more fuel for the fire. What's more, the Alliance needs to stand on it's own and while it's bad enough that we're constantly told that we need the Orc to survive, it's much worse actually being saved by him. Heck, I'm to the point where dying to the last is prefered to being saved by the Orc.

Really though, a simple apology is all I ask, yet I'm the crazy one for even suggesting such a thing.
I really wish the Alliance stopped being such Neutral wusses. Draenei really cared less about the Alliance. Almost every hero the alliance have, they are neutral and stupid. Neutrality is boring and makes good character look stupid. When I first saw Khadgar, I assumed Alliance would get a good story, boy was I fooled.

i'm surprised that Alliance is a faction to begin with when we are bent with relying on the Horde. I don't believe the Alliance will ever have enough factional pride as the Horde will always have. THe Horde is so favored, the afterthoughts (Alliance) just have to stand there and watch their brother and rival get all the love and we only get scraps of what could be a good story.

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