Reasons for war between Alliance/Horde

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Orcs don't apologize. It's part of their culture. Which is why Thrall refused to apologize on behalf of his people for the incident in Ashenvale in during The Shattering.

They do however attempt to redeem themselves. Or at least, they were....before some mega jackass came along and became the warchief.


I didn't see Orcs going out of their way to be nice to Theramore. That's because Orcs don't care about their victims. They only care about themselves. They have never once thought they owed the Alliance anything, whether it was through words or deeds.

And if they really wanted peace, they would have done something like that simply out of a sign of good will, to mend fences, even if it went against their damned pride to do so. To the Alliance, the Orcs haven't changed because they have never made an effort to show they have.
06/17/2012 11:59 AMPosted by Drailen
After the war against Arthas there was a cease fire, but Blizzard used the Twilight's Hammer(LAME) to create incidents between the Horde and the Alliance.


I don't know. Think about it, if YOU were trying to take over the world then wouldn't you want your enemies fighting each other rather then you?
Drailen, I think Tevinter's point is that he invaded UC because of the Wrathgate incident. He couldn't have invaded UC because of the experiments going on in the Apothecarium because he hadn't seen them until he invaded UC.

I don't really think it matters much why he invaded or whether it was "just" or anything else people might throw at it.

This conflict has been a long time brewing. It's steeped in years of distrust.

Get it? lol. :P


He did invade for the same reason he was disgusted with the apothecarium. He even said it right in the Undercity: He saw "their world" when he was a gladiator. He wanted his men to see it, too.

That the Forsaken Apothecarium was about a hundred times worst than anything he saw in Orgrimmar, Dire Maul or Thunderbluff didn't help the Forsaken's plight all that much.
He did invade for the same reason he was disgusted with the apothecarium. He even said it right in the Undercity: He saw "their world" when he was a gladiator. He wanted his men to see it, too.
How could he have known about the experiments going on though I think is the point.

You can't invade a city for a reason that you don't even know about yet. He invaded because he was mad (rightfully so) about the events that transpired at the wrathgate. What he found out while he was there further fueled his anger/rage towards the Forsaken, and the Horde as a whole.
I didn't see Orcs going out of their way to be nice to Theramore. That's because Orcs don't care about their victims. They only care about themselves. They have never once thought they owed the Alliance anything, whether it was through words or deeds.


That's a load. Saurfang shows quite well in Northrend that he and other Orcs feel guilt.

Theramore going down is also something that happens under Garrosh's reign, so I don't know why you brought it up. I already said he was a jerk.

And the Orcs don't feel they owe the Alliance anything because they feel after aiding in saving the world several times and settling in Durotar, they've atoned enough. And they know the humans still want blood. And Garrosh validated this feeling of theirs by giving the order to go on the offensive...and restoring their pride.

It's also stupid to generalize an entire race.
How could he have known about the experiments going on though I think is the point.

You can't invade a city for a reason that you don't even know about yet. He invaded because he was mad (rightfully so) about the events that transpired at the wrathgate. What he found out while he was there further fueled his anger/rage towards the Forsaken, and the Horde as a whole.


He said in the Undercity that he was in the Horde's "world", and saw into the Orc's "hearts".

He was subjected to a world with slavery, forced gladiatorial combat, etc. He expected nothing good to come from the Undercity.

He went in there and saw worse. He saw Abominations and demons.

The thing is the Forsaken made it clear they wanted redemption when they joined the Horde, even if all they really wanted was to get revenge. The Forsaken also made it clear however that they felt the Light abandoned them and they should therefore embrace the darkness.

In other words, the Forsaken made their bed, and Varian is determined that they lay in it....buried.
He said in the Undercity that he was in the Horde's "world", and saw into the Orc's "hearts".

He was subjected to a world with slavery, forced gladiatorial combat, etc. He expected nothing good to come from the Undercity.

He went in there and saw worse. He saw Abominations and demons.
This is all well and good except again, he would have no way of knowing what would be at the UC. He invaded as a retaliation. He would have had no way of knowing about the Apothecarium before hand, so it could not have been the reason he invaded was the point.

Again, I do believe that once he was already there that he found PLENTY of new reasons to hate the Horde, and the Forsaken. Even if they were rebels, there were numerous amounts of horrible things there that he saw which would cause anyone to have extreme anger towards them (like that worm thing that spews... green stuff...? Wtf is that?!).
This is all well and good except again, he would have no way of knowing what would be at the UC. He invaded as a retaliation. He would have had no way of knowing about the Apothecarium before hand, so it could not have been the reason he invaded was the point.


The reason Varian attacked the Undercity was stated quite plainly. Jaina heard from Thrall -exactly- what happened, and told Varian; the Forsaken apothecaries betrayed the combined Horde and Alliance forces, thanks in part to Varimathras' coup, took the Undercity from the Forsaken -and the Horde-, and were responsible for Bolvar's death.

Varian chose to attack the Undercity to bring Justice to the traitors and honor Bolvar's last stand. There may very well have been intentions to conquer the Undercity as well; it wasn't Horde territory at that time. If so, he didn't specifically say so in his dialogue, that I can remember.

Again, I do believe that once he was already there that he found PLENTY of new reasons to hate the Horde, and the Forsaken. Even if they were rebels, there were numerous amounts of horrible things there that he saw which would cause anyone to have extreme anger towards them (like that worm thing that spews... green stuff...? Wtf is that?!).


Varian had -enough- reasons to hate the Horde well before Undercity. The death of his father, the loss of his kingdom, his own enslavement for Orcish amusement, Garrosh's attitude, Thrall bringing the Doomhammer and wearing the armor of Ogrim to a -PEACE- conference on several occasions, etc... DESPITE all of that and more, he did his best to work with the Horde, to try for peaceful co-existence.

It was the Forsaken looking a lot like a diluted scourge, and who were responsible for the largest loss in the Northrend Campaign for both factions, which prompted Varian to finally say what had been going on for years as was; war.
06/17/2012 05:45 PMPosted by Elenie
Thrall bringing the Doomhammer and wearing the armor of Ogrim to a -PEACE- conference on several occasions


Has there been any mention of Alliance members even flinching at the weapon and armor?
06/17/2012 06:26 PMPosted by Spacemuffin
Has there been any mention of Alliance members even flinching at the weapon and armor?


Does there have to be? We're talking about a weapon with the blood of countless innocent lives upon it, from both Ogrim -and- Thrall, no less. Usually bringing a weapon to a peace conference is not a good idea. Bringing one with a history of slaughter and warfare? Even less of a good idea. Its a note to Varian's strength of character that he didn't make a mention of Thrall's attire or weaponry, -let alone- the fact Thrall also brought along Varian's former slavemaster as an adviser.
06/17/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Elenie
Does there have to be? We're talking about a weapon with the blood of countless innocent lives upon it, from both Ogrim -and- Thrall, no less. Usually bringing a weapon to a peace conference is not a good idea. Bringing one with a history of slaughter and warfare? Even less of a good idea. Its a note to Varian's strength of character that he didn't make a mention of Thrall's attire or weaponry, -let alone- the fact Thrall also brought along Varian's former slavemaster as an adviser.


I guess. Though, should we assume that the Horde doesn't take too kindly to that giant statue of Daelin as well?
The reason Varian attacked the Undercity was stated quite plainly. Jaina heard from Thrall -exactly- what happened, and told Varian; the Forsaken apothecaries betrayed the combined Horde and Alliance forces, thanks in part to Varimathras' coup, took the Undercity from the Forsaken -and the Horde-, and were responsible for Bolvar's death.

Varian chose to attack the Undercity to bring Justice to the traitors and honor Bolvar's last stand. There may very well have been intentions to conquer the Undercity as well; it wasn't Horde territory at that time. If so, he didn't specifically say so in his dialogue, that I can remember.
My apologies, as I don't recall that being stated from the Horde side (although I do remember jaina showing up in org explaining that varian was to attack UC), and I have never done the Alliance side of it.

06/17/2012 05:45 PMPosted by Elenie
Varian had -enough- reasons to hate the Horde well before Undercity.
I pretty much made that clear in my post that I understood that, not sure why it's being restated?
06/17/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Spacemuffin
I guess. Though, should we assume that the Horde doesn't take too kindly to that giant statue of Daelin as well?


Where? And Yes!

06/17/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Lazyguide
My apologies, as I don't recall that being stated from the Horde side (although I do remember jaina showing up in org explaining that varian was to attack UC), and I have never done the Alliance side of it.


I did both sides. The Horde side was better. Alliance side was cheaper. Both sides were top quality.

06/17/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Lazyguide
I pretty much made that clear in my post that I understood that, not sure why it's being restated?


I like to be thorough =)
06/17/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Elenie
Where? And Yes!


X( I forgot. I agree that these assumptions aren't too far off.

http://www.wowpedia.org/File:Daelin.jpg?c=1
06/17/2012 07:10 PMPosted by Spacemuffin
Where? And Yes!


X( I forgot. I agree that these assumptions aren't too far off.

http://www.wowpedia.org/File:Daelin.jpg?c=1


Oh that. It was life sized and in Vanilla-Stormwind's Keep. There used to be a room of statues of small heroes. It's gone now.
06/17/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Elenie
Oh that. It was life sized and in Vanilla-Stormwind's Keep. There used to be a room of statues of small heroes. It's gone now.


I think that there was a mention of one erected in Kul'tiras. I'm not sure. I should really keep log of these things.

Maybe that statue was relocated. Not sure.
I think that there was a mention of one erected in Kul'tiras. I'm not sure. I should really keep log of these things.


Chances are, like the Alliance Holiday Hordefall, it only existed in the RPGs, as very little is known about Kul Tiras. Might be there. If it is, by all means, the Horde should be pissed about it, and try to destroy it!
This is all well and good except again, he would have no way of knowing what would be at the UC. He invaded as a retaliation. He would have had no way of knowing about the Apothecarium before hand, so it could not have been the reason he invaded was the point.


He's a king. He has spies. He just lost a lot of soldiers to a Forsaken-developed alchemical weapon. He knew that whatever would be in that Apothecarium would be bad.
06/17/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Spacemuffin
I guess. Though, should we assume that the Horde doesn't take too kindly to that giant statue of Daelin as well?


I doubt Varian brought an entire statue with him, nor have the Horde ever set foot in Stormwind without death and destruction on their minds.
I doubt Varian brought an entire statue with him, nor have the Horde ever set foot in Stormwind without death and destruction on their minds.


There was that one ambassador.

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