MoP raid releases will be staggered

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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08/02/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Bigmac
This is ridiculous, there is no reason whatsoever to delay the first raid a week after launch


Please read this thread rather than just posting it it.

Yes, there are reasons. A lot of them. They've been listed in this thread. Multiple times from multiple people and from multiple perspectives.

Any of you guys think Blizz is doing this because they are following through on the "more content faster" thing?

No, I think they are doing it because they don't like the way people are consuming raid content as "time trials." I supsect they also don't really love the the emerging culture of "speed clear raiding at all costs and to hell with the rest of the game."

This concept is far from unique or new. At the end of the day, raiding is full of "throttling" mechanisms meant to limit your ability to raid and gear. The whole point of lockouts, valor point caps, etc. is to prevent you from plowing through the content too fast. You are - and have always been - subject to limits on raiding.

To flip to the other extreme, they could easily put all raids on a 3-day lockout, remove the valor point cap and release all 16 bosses and day 1. And no doubt someone, somewhere, would love that, and play WoW until their eyes bled, and have a very enjoyable time of it for a while.

But they don't want that. They don't want you do to it. They want you to eat raiding in weekly morsels. They strip away rewards if you do it too much (in the case of valor). They physcially prevent you from doing it more than once a week (in the case of lockouts). And they slow the pace at which you smash through their content (in the case of gating, or spreading raiding over patches, as opposed to just putting every tier in at release).

And no, not because they care about your health. Not because they are your mom. Not because the bosses aren't ready.

It's just because they've gone to all the trouble to make this game, and maybe it isn't so fun for them to have a culture that revolves around binging on one small part of it.

That, and frankly, they need you to stay subscribed. They make money because you play OVER TIME, not based on how many bosses you kill the first week.


God I love your posts.
/subscribe
I'd be really surprised if three weeks was a long enough time to really unbalance progression in that respect, even if you're in a guild able to full-clear heroic Mogu'shan Vaults the first week it's available.

Which I'd like to assume won't even be possible.


Even if T14 is as tough as T11, which I think it has a good chance to be, MV still only has 6 bosses. Unless MV heroic has multiple gear checks where you need the stars and planets to perfectly align to down it while so undergeared, I could see a few of the very top guilds downing it on heroic week 1. Certainly heroic week 2. Only because you only need to figure out for bosses.
This whole thing makes a lot more sense with only a 2 or 3 week delay, 4 just doesn't work.

Assuming decently tuned, not DS style, normals a guild that can clear normal mode in a week or two is probably a guild interested in heroic modes. Guilds that are just finishing normal MSV when HoF and Terrace open are probably less interested, or at least less capable of heroic modes.

With 4 weeks that breaks down somewhat, I'm guessing the logic behind 4 weeks is that those guilds less interested in pushing progression probably won't raid the first week MSV is open.

A lot of this will depend on tuning, how many guilds can get through normal and heroic MSV, whatever their intended mode is, before HoF and Terrace come out. I still think 4 weeks is too long but if MSV normal and heroic are tuned hard enough it could work.


Supposedly HoF and Terrace are tuned assuming you have full 489 gear or close to it. I personally think Blizzard is saving themselves from a headache here. If they opened HoF and Terrace, a lot of people who downed heroic content in DS (with the nerf) would find themselves having a lot of trouble with normal modes. This causes a lot of complaining on the forums and leads to nerfs sooner than they should come out. By delaying it, Blizzard is giving you a chance to experience Vaults, get some gear and have a fair shot at HoF and Terrace. Great move on Blizzard's part.


While I think this would normally be a great point I think you still must complete MV before HoF and Terrace are opened. Say your guild starts raiding 3 months into MoP. You still I think need to have 1 person have downed MV to enter the other 2. I think that's how they have it set up.

If I'm wrong yours I think is a good additional point why they may have done this. I think everyone remembers the complaining about people going from ICC to really tough T11? There is a good possibility of that here.

Edit: I am wrong as someone below me pointed out. So ignore the 1st paragraph ;)


So what you're saying is, eventually this game is gonna go to a pay-to-play model where I have to shell out $2.50 for every boss that I want to access.

/sarcasm

This is so ironic, coming from somebody who bought their H DW title.

As a nod to full disclosure I also purchased mine.

Which I've never used, seeing as how I haven't earned it yet. I'm kind of a stickler about that sort of thing.

I'd be really surprised if three weeks was a long enough time to really unbalance progression in that respect, even if you're in a guild able to full-clear heroic Mogu'shan Vaults the first week it's available.

Which I'd like to assume won't even be possible.


Even if T14 is as tough as T11, which I think it has a good chance to be, MV still only has 6 bosses. Unless MV heroic has multiple gear checks where you need the stars and planets to perfectly align to down it while so undergeared, I could see a few of the very top guilds downing it on heroic week 1. Certainly heroic week 2. Only because you only need to figure out for bosses.

FL had seven and heroic Ragnaros held out for quite awhile.

/shrug

I don't expect another heroic Ragnaros, but the number of bosses isn't really a decent time gauge.

This concept is far from unique or new. At the end of the day, raiding is full of "throttling" mechanisms meant to limit your ability to raid and gear. The whole point of lockouts, valor point caps, etc. is to prevent you from plowing through the content too fast. You are - and have always been - subject to limits on raiding.

That, and frankly, they need you to stay subscribed. They make money because you play OVER TIME, not based on how many bosses you kill the first week.


Considering that this is an MMO with subs I don't see how that is any kind of issue. They want us to stay subbed otherwise they would fail at the core of the type of game they have produced.

However, if they are going to want us to stay subbed then why is it a bad thing if they release content more quickly over periods of time rather than giving us bulk content at a slower rate?

As pointed out, this is an MMO. This isn't a game whose point is to just finish it. So why not give us content that is released over periods of time so we do have something to do? Because if everyone's intent is to just finish content quickly and stop why are they playing a sub based MMO?
08/02/2012 08:40 AMPosted by Petriim
While I think this would normally be a great point I think you still must complete MV before HoF and Terrace are opened. Say your guild starts raiding 3 months into MoP. You still I think need to have 1 person have downed MV to enter the other 2. I think that's how they have it set up.

No, the only cross-raid gating in place is that you have to clear normal Heart of Fear to enter normal Terrace of Endless Spring. And maybe it'll be possible to blow that off by having a raid leader who's done it, I'm not sure how stringent they'll be about each individual in the raid.

Mogu'shan Vaults comes first just because... it's coming out first. It doesn't unlock anything.
FL had seven and heroic Ragnaros held out for quite awhile.

/shrug

I don't expect another heroic Ragnaros, but the number of bosses isn't really a decent time gauge.

The other six didn't last the week. I expect to see the top end guilds clearing H MSV the first week its available because with very few exceptions bosses rarely last more then 1 lockout. The only bosses that have are in the category of hardest bosses ever, bugged beyond playability or had some sort of gating hard (time limit, attempt limit) or soft (gear) gate. Even the vaunted M'uru died within 5 days of being available.

The question is how will those guilds the next tier down do? Will we see 6/6H MSV for the first 8 pages of WoW Progress by the time HoF and Terrace open or will it be confined to the first page.

Yes, there are reasons. A lot of them. They've been listed in this thread. Multiple times from multiple people and from multiple perspectives.


And so far we've gotten:

-Prevents burnout: Burnout is a player issue. You and you alone are responsible for moderating your own gameplay. No one else is responsible in any way if players do unhealthy things for the game except the players themselves.

-Allow time to level and see all the content: The content isn't removed when you start raiding and you can level at your own place regardless. Feeling "pressured" to level is a player issue and not a game design issue. If you feel you just "have" to rush to the end and it isn't the method of playing you'd most enjoy why are you doing it? That's a (individual) player issue and has nothing to do with the game's design.

-Prevents guilds from expecting everyone ready in a few days: If your guild's leadership and your personal goals and expectations are that far apart that is a player issue and has nothing to do with the game's design. The whole purpose of guilds is to group up with players of similar expectations and goals. If you apply to a bleeding edge progression guild you knew the expectations. If you join a casual friends and fmaily guild you knew the expectations. Any disparity is either the result of poor leadership, poor guild selection (for an individual) or poor recruitment (for a guild) andnot dependent on the game's design.

-Prevents hardcore raiders from going nonstop until everything is cleared: See burnout above. That is a player issue and doesn't need Blizzard modulating gameplay.

-Prevents less ambitous guilds from "falling behind" - ever since Wrath shifted the raiding paradigm to a single tier instead of linear progression it is impossible to fall behind. You are in the same tier fighting the same encounters and getting the same gear as the Paragons, Methods, KIN Raiders, and Blood Legions of the world are. As a matter of fact you could completely chose not to raid in T14 and you will have a mechanism when T15 is released that will allow you gear to immediately enter it without touching a single one of these raids.

Why are playes incapable or unwilling to slow down their leveling if they want to? Why are players incapable or unwilling to not be neck and neck with some percieved competition if their primary interest is elsewhere? Why are players not willing to acknowledge that their choices are theirs to make and not a product of the game's design?

The only time there is no choice is when arbitrary gates are put up. That's where a lot of the frustration expressed in this thread comes from.

Yes, there are reasons. A lot of them. They've been listed in this thread. Multiple times from multiple people and from multiple perspectives.


And so far we've gotten:

-Prevents burnout: Burnout is a player issue. You and you alone are responsible for moderating your own gameplay. No one else is responsible in any way if players do unhealthy things for the game except the players themselves.

-Allow time to level and see all the content: The content isn't removed when you start raiding and you can level at your own place regardless. Feeling "pressured" to level is a player issue and not a game design issue. If you feel you just "have" to rush to the end and it isn't the method of playing you'd most enjoy why are you doing it? That's a (individual) player issue and has nothing to do with the game's design.

-Prevents guilds from expecting everyone ready in a few days: If your guild's leadership and your personal goals and expectations are that far apart that is a player issue and has nothing to do with the game's design. The whole purpose of guilds is to group up with players of similar expectations and goals. If you apply to a bleeding edge progression guild you knew the expectations. If you join a casual friends and fmaily guild you knew the expectations. Any disparity is either the result of poor leadership, poor guild selection (for an individual) or poor recruitment (for a guild) andnot dependent on the game's design.

-Prevents hardcore raiders from going nonstop until everything is cleared: See burnout above. That is a player issue and doesn't need Blizzard modulating gameplay.

-Prevents less ambitous guilds from "falling behind" - ever since Wrath shifted the raiding paradigm to a single tier instead of linear progression it is impossible to fall behind. You are in the same tier fighting the same encounters and getting the same gear as the Paragons, Methods, KIN Raiders, and Blood Legions of the world are. As a matter of fact you could completely chose not to raid in T14 and you will have a mechanism when T15 is released that will allow you gear to immediately enter it without touching a single one of these raids.

Why are playes incapable or unwilling to slow down their leveling if they want to? Why are players incapable or unwilling to not be neck and neck with some percieved competition if their primary interest is elsewhere? Why are players not willing to acknowledge that their choices are theirs to make and not a product of the game's design?

The only time there is no choice is when arbitrary gates are put up. That's where a lot of the frustration expressed in this thread comes from.


Possibly because there are players in top tiered guilds who enjoy putting all their recreation time into raiding and everything that goes into that but don't enjoy power leveling?

And burnout is something Bliz wants to avoid since when some raiders burn out they unsub. They don't want that.

4 week delay IMO is still to long though.
Sigh.
More placating the lowest common denominators.

Its just too bad you people werent in charge of Super Mario Bros. or Tron back in the 80s so those kids who never beat it because it was too challenging could beat it through various "nerfs".
I know, life is too hard for most people on earth, so can you nerf that too please?

I fail to see any logic behind this "gating" of content.
Burnout is a player issue . . . Prevents hardcore raiders from going nonstop until everything is cleared is a player issue . . . .

First, some "player issues" are, in fact, Blizzard issues, because Blizzard needs to accomodate the realities of player behavior into their game.

Simply put, it is not in their interest to develop a system that leads to player burnout and then hope that players won't burn out. It is also not in their interest to develop a system that allows you to "win the game" too fast and just hope that people will pace themselves. That is especially true at this point - when they know for a fact that players DO burn out and DON'T pace themselves.

And, by the way, that has nothing to do with caring about your health or wanting to tell you how to live your life. It has to do with "burned out players quit playing/paying" and "people who have finished the game quit playing/paying." They don't want you to quit, so they prevent you from doing things that might cause you to quit. It is as simple as that.

In theory, they could remove the valor point cap and simply say "yeah, if you are willing to run 500 heroics and get a full set of valor gear in three days of marathon play, go for it." But they don't want you to do that. That isn't how they want their game played. And they probably realize that doing that would just hurt both their subscriber base and general player expereince.

Second, I don't think they really *like* people playing for nothing but speed raiding. I think they are justifiably proud of all the work they put into different parts of the game, and I wouldn't blame them if, deep down, part of this is motivated by . . . encouraging . . . players to take their time levelling, or trying other parts of the game.

The first point is more important, of course, but I wouldn't discount the second.
Yukio, I've always enjoyed the hell out of your posts. I agree with everything you said, like usual.

Keep it up!
-Prevents burnout: Burnout is a player issue. You and you alone are responsible for moderating your own gameplay. No one else is responsible in any way if players do unhealthy things for the game except the players themselves.

-Allow time to level and see all the content: The content isn't removed when you start raiding and you can level at your own place regardless. Feeling "pressured" to level is a player issue and not a game design issue. If you feel you just "have" to rush to the end and it isn't the method of playing you'd most enjoy why are you doing it? That's a (individual) player issue and has nothing to do with the game's design.

-Prevents guilds from expecting everyone ready in a few days: If your guild's leadership and your personal goals and expectations are that far apart that is a player issue and has nothing to do with the game's design. The whole purpose of guilds is to group up with players of similar expectations and goals. If you apply to a bleeding edge progression guild you knew the expectations. If you join a casual friends and fmaily guild you knew the expectations. Any disparity is either the result of poor leadership, poor guild selection (for an individual) or poor recruitment (for a guild) andnot dependent on the game's design.

-Prevents hardcore raiders from going nonstop until everything is cleared: See burnout above. That is a player issue and doesn't need Blizzard modulating gameplay.

-Prevents less ambitous guilds from "falling behind" - ever since Wrath shifted the raiding paradigm to a single tier instead of linear progression it is impossible to fall behind. You are in the same tier fighting the same encounters and getting the same gear as the Paragons, Methods, KIN Raiders, and Blood Legions of the world are. As a matter of fact you could completely chose not to raid in T14 and you will have a mechanism when T15 is released that will allow you gear to immediately enter it without touching a single one of these raids.

Why are playes incapable or unwilling to slow down their leveling if they want to? Why are players incapable or unwilling to not be neck and neck with some percieved competition if their primary interest is elsewhere? Why are players not willing to acknowledge that their choices are theirs to make and not a product of the game's design?

The only time there is no choice is when arbitrary gates are put up. That's where a lot of the frustration expressed in this thread comes from.


Just to add my thoughts to your post:

First point is a good point, but for the staggered release of HoF and Terrace. Releasing MV week 1 will not have any effect on burnout.

Second Point: I have no interest whatsoever in questing. I do not enjoy it and I don't wish to take my time with it. A lot of other players feel this way. Also, no one is "forced" to rush through the levels unless you're in a top end guild in which case you likely would rush leveling anyway. Not to mention blizzard's position on being able to play the game how you want. I was all for this TBH, when it came to rewarding VP for daily quests for the more casual player base, but where's the reciprocity. I want to play hardcore week 1, shouldn't I be able to?

I completely agree with everything said.

Also @Poena: I read 5 pages and didn't see a single post with a reason to delay MV a week. Plenty of reasons for HoF and Terrace to be delayed, which I agree with.

I still stand by my statement that there are no (real) reasons whatsoever to delay the release of MV by one week.
08/02/2012 09:10 AMPosted by Petriim
And burnout is something Bliz wants to avoid since when some raiders burn out they unsub. They don't want that.


And once again burnout is a result of players decisons that they made. Players alone are responsible for preventing ther own burnout. Do you need someone to remind you to brush your teeth or go to bed on time? If not why do you need someone to tell you to slow down your gameplay?

Being responsible for your own choices and decisions and accepting the consequences of those decisions is kind of the point of adulthood right? If a player isn't an adult (or otherwise incapable of personal responsibility) who's responsibility is it to monitor them and hold their hands? And there are parental controls on an account for a reason right?
08/02/2012 09:28 AMPosted by Mcbenys
And once again burnout is a result of players decisons that they made. Players alone are responsible for preventing ther own burnout.

Burned out players quit. Players who quit stop giving Blizzard money. Blizzard wants money.

You are trying WAY too hard to pretend this is a "personal liberty" issue, and pretend this is some kind of "mommy state" affront to your personal soverignity. You aren't the Tea Party, and Blizzard isn't "The Man."

They are going to do what is "best" for their playerbase, because that is what is "best" for their success. And in both cases, I'm using "best" to mean "most likely to keep playing," nothing else.
@Mcbeny
Very good post high lights that gating does not address any of the real issues

@all
A better solution to this would just be to get rid of having to level all together so we could focus on raiding Day 1. This would stop the ridicules claim of "Being overwhelmed"

@Blizzard
I was very excited about this expansion especially the first week where I could take a few days off of work power level up and raid with my friends a bit more then we normally would. Also Even though my entire raid group doesn't plan to power level I enjoy the first week of having a chance to raid with other people I normally wouldn't raid with but are like minded and want to see content ASAP

@Crithto
I willing to compromise at 1 raid on normal available at launch. Even thought I think delaying any of this content is a flawed approach. Is this to much to ask for considering we have will have been waiting for 10 months for new raid content. I think a lot of us thought Mop was coming sooner when we signed up for the annual pass..... You can at least through us a bone.
08/02/2012 09:28 AMPosted by Mcbenys
And burnout is something Bliz wants to avoid since when some raiders burn out they unsub. They don't want that.


And once again burnout is a result of players decisons that they made. Players alone are responsible for preventing ther own burnout. Do you need someone to remind you to brush your teeth or go to bed on time? If not why do you need someone to tell you to slow down your gameplay?

Being responsible for your own choices and decisions and accepting the consequences of those decisions is kind of the point of adulthood right? If a player isn't an adult (or otherwise incapable of personal responsibility) who's responsibility is it to monitor them and hold their hands? And there are parental controls on an account for a reason right?


People can NOT be trusted to do practically anything by themselves.

Why do you think Law and Religion are so central to our civilizations? Because without them we'd have all gone postal on eachother long ago.
Wasn't the reason that most hardcore guilds were unhappy with T11 was because Blizzard was changing the fights during people's attempts?

I remember Paragon saying during Sinestra, Blizzard was making hotfixing between attempts, so you could do one thing for one attempt, next attempt, it was hotfixed, and they had to wipe and think of a new strategy.

I also remember Cuties Only making the same comment when they were doing Ascendant Council.

I get why they gated the last two raids, I really do. It's so that the top guilds wouldn't have to mow through 16 bosses each week.

But I just don't get why they would gate it the first week. People say, "oh now we can't burnout", well, now some guilds will have 3-4 alts raid ready by the time heroic MV comes out. Then we get to hear some people complain about class stacking.

Again, this doesn't affect me at all. My guild doesn't plan on doing 25s til the last two raids are open (maybe even later, we aren't pushing people to level). I just don't like the fact a gaming company tells me when I can and when I can't raid. It just sets a bad precedence (I hope that's the right word).
08/02/2012 09:31 AMPosted by Waste
You are trying WAY too hard to pretend this is a "personal liberty" issue, and pretend this is some kind of "mommy state" affront to your personal soverignity. You aren't the Tea Party, and Blizzard isn't "The Man."


Wasn't really going for the political allegory plus I doubt a Cal Berkeley grad could ever be accussed of being the Tea party. =)

Nothing said will hange the fact that it is an arbitrary gate whos' primary purpose is to keep more ambitous guilds/raids from getting "too far" ahead of less ambitous ones. The reasons for the gating have nothing to do with best interest of the players and most likely something to do with maintaining subsription counts via artificially extending content. It has nothing to do with burnout or any other altruistic reasons people have tossed around.

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